Toyota's Monster

[Bill Blue]

Boy, things are really looking sour for Toyota. It might be the end of Toyota as we know it. Read this:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100304/ap_on_hi_te/us_toyota_black_boxes

I must say, that as a practicing parasite, I had issues with Toyota on two or three different occasions. Not nice people to deal with, but I'll not go into that. I will say this news item is very much in keeping with their corporate culture, but I am surprised they have taken it to this point.

Bill

 

[Nickodell]

Ejection seats as an option?

"I never joke about my work, 007."

 

[MikeH]

Very good Nick, but please... call me James.

 

[Bill Blue]

So what is with the Prius in California? The brakes were able to slow the car to 94 mph, but not stop the car. The parking brake, along with the service brakes, were able to slow it to 50, at which time he shut the engine off. Aren't the parking brakes a part of the service brakes?

It seems to me the logical explanation is something is preventing the service brakes from applying fully. I really wonder if Toyota will ever come clean on this, or go down, claiming to the last breath nothing is wrong.

Bill

 

[RootesRacer]

So what is with the Prius in California? The brakes were able to slow the car to 94 mph, but not stop the car. The parking brake, along with the service brakes, were able to slow it to 50, at which time he shut the engine off. Aren't the parking brakes a part of the service brakes?

It seems to me the logical explanation is something is preventing the service brakes from applying fully. I really wonder if Toyota will ever come clean on this, or go down, claiming to the last breath nothing is wrong.

Bill

The prius is not apart of the DBW recall, totally different system.

The prius uses regenerative braking, so put some thought on that.

 

[MikeH]

Cell phone call from Prius with sudden acceleration:

Help, it just took off... I can't stop it... It wont stop.
Hurry, we're hitting 20 in this thing!

 

[Bill Blue]

The prius is not apart of the DBW recall, totally different system.

The prius uses regenerative braking, so put some thought on that.

I have, but don't know exactly what to make of it. Does it mean the service brakes are inadequate without the regenerative braking? Is that an excuse? If so, I'd say someone needs to rethink the whole Hybrid issue. Does it mean the computer is in charge of all braking except the parking brake?

Also, do a Google search on Prius unintended acceleration. There is a lot of it, but usually the service brake has brought the car under control and the engine will shut off. But all that means is that Toyota has a much more widespread problem than they admit.

Bill

 

[Nickodell]

After the - apparently - mandatory calling on his cell phone, applying the brakes, praying, working his beads, or whatever, then he thinks about turning the bloody thing off??

 

[RootesRacer]

I have, but don't know exactly what to make of it. Does it mean the service brakes are inadequate without the regenerative braking? Is that an excuse? If so, I'd say someone needs to rethink the whole Hybrid issue. Does it mean the computer is in charge of all braking except the parking brake?

Also, do a Google search on Prius unintended acceleration. There is a lot of it, but usually the service brake has brought the car under control and the engine will shut off. But all that means is that Toyota has a much more widespread problem than they admit.

Bill

There appears to be a firmware bug on the Prius, a problem that existed before the DBW problem for their normal gas jobs went mainstream.

The reported problem is a jerky braking operation as the system controller goes from pure regenerative braking into actual mechanical braking.

This does not surprise me, as the brakes wear, the ability for the electronics to predict the proper proportion of one to the other is going to change.

As for the unintended acceleration, drive is from a DC motor, so the method of failure cant even be compared, other than that the same mfgr made them.

 

[Bill Blue]

Nick, the guy was following standard advice, which is to leave the engine on and brake. He turned the engine off when the cop told him to, after the combination of brakes and parking brake slowed him to 50 mph.

Jarrid, does the Prius drive 100% through the DC motor? I know the Prius is set up so it can be driven with batteries as the only power source. But it sounds like you saying it is set up like a Diesel locomotive with no mechanical transmission. If Toyota has a battery system that can power the car at 90+ mph for 30 miles with the brakes on, they've got something no one else has. Lets see here, maybe this: If all the braking was being done by the regenerative system, how far could it go at 90 mph if it started with full batteries? Is that the scenario you are getting at?

Bill

 

[Chuck Ingram]

Wow
All this stuff is making me sure glad I never bought a Toyota.
I have a 07 Kia Magentis
I complained about a simple erratic thermostat problem.Original dealer service manager was big Jerk who knew a hell of alot less than I did
I took it first time to another dealer as its still under warranty.The technician said works fine.I contacted Kia Canada.They contacted the service manager.went back this AM and the thermostat will be changed under warranty regardless.I think thats pretty decent.

 

[MikeH]

After the - apparently - mandatory calling on his cell phone, applying the brakes, praying, working his beads, or whatever, then he thinks about turning the bloody thing off??

OOORR, It was a great way to get out of a speeding ticket.
"Honest officer I just couldn't slow it down."

 

[Nickodell]

Nick, the guy was following standard advice, which is to leave the engine on and brake. He turned the engine off when the cop told him to, after the combination of brakes and parking brake slowed him to 50 mph.

Bill

Not according to the news at 11pm. The guy was asked why he didn't hit the OFF button, and at first he rambled about something, then said he was too busy driving (AND CELL PHONING, DUMMY??). Then he said he tried pressing the button several times but it only worked after several attempts. Toyota's handbook says to stop models with an ENGINE ON/OFF button when in Drive it's necessary to hold it down for 3.5 seconds, as a safety precaution against accidentally hitting it and losing power unintentionally.

I'm currently looking at joining the current class action suit against Toyota for losing the value of my Camry.

 

[Bill Blue]

Nick, I simply do not understand your interest in the driver's reaction to the abrupt crisis. Does his reaction in some way mitigate the fact the car went out of control?

Bill

 

[Chuck Ingram]

On the news last night a police car got in front of a Prius to slow it down.Pretty good action on the officers part.Driver of the Toyota was pretty shaken saying he will never drive that car again

 

[Nickodell]

Chuck: That is the incident being discused above.

Bill: When I first started driving (back when Fred Flinstone had just graduated from pedaling his car along) my dad, who told me many things, none of which I ever found to be untrue or worthless, said to avoid treating driving as just a ho hum boring thing, but be ready at all times to expect the unexpected and be ready to take the proper action. It's saved my bacon a dozen times in the intervening 56 years, with people running red lights and stop signs etc., and even having a wheel come off.

He gave me examples, like "you round the next corner and a lorry has skidded across the road." I.e. never drive faster than you could, if necessary, stop within the distance you can see.

In other words, you can do what 99% of drivers do, lie back, turn the A/C and CD player up, go into a kind of semi-drowse and just enjoy the ride. Or you can do what my dad said; play "What If" with yourself - What If X Happens, and What Do I do? Beats the hell out of "Duh? Better call 911."

Here's the poop on some engine START/STOP buttons:

Camry/Prius etc. 3.3 seconds
Infiniti 2.5 "

One big difference is that in the Infiniti three rapid presses kills the engine, while you have to hold the button down 3.3+ seconds with the others. Why the difference?

As to the "brakes wouldn't stop the car" crap, here's what Car & Driver (March) found:

"With the (V6) Camry's throttle pinned while going 70 mph, the brakes easily overcame all 268 horsepower straining against them and stopped the car in 190 feet - that's a foot shorter than the performance of a Ford Taurus without any gas pedal problems, and just 16 feet longer than with the Camry's throttle closed. From 100 mph, the stopping distance differential was 88 feet [longer than with no throttle] ... but the car still slowed enthusiastically enough to impart a feeling of confidence."

Then they tried the same exercise with a 540 hp Roush Mustang:

"From 70 mph the brakes were still resolutely king even though the pinned throttle added 80 feet to its stopping distance." Even at 100 mph the brakes were able to overcome the powerful engine: "The 540-hp supercharged Roush finally did succumb, chugging to a stop in a puff of brake smoke."

And in a wimpy PRIUS??

 

[Bill Blue]

Chuck: That is the incident being discused above.

Bill: When I first started driving (back when Fred Flinstone had just graduated from pedaling his car along) my dad, who told me many things, none of which I ever found to be untrue or worthless, said to avoid treating driving as just a ho hum boring thing, but be ready at all times to expect the unexpected and be ready to take the proper action. It's saved my bacon a dozen times in the intervening 56 years, with people running red lights and stop signs etc., and even having a wheel come off.

He gave me examples, like "you round the next corner and a lorry has skidded across the road." I.e. never drive faster than you could, if necessary, stop within the distance you can see.

In other words, you can do what 99% of drivers do, lie back, turn the A/C and CD player up, go into a kind of semi-drowse and just enjoy the ride. Or you can do what my dad said; play "What If" with yourself - What If X Happens, and What Do I do? Beats the hell out of "Duh? Better call 911."

Here's the full poop on Toyota engine START/STOP buttons:

Camry/Prius etc. 3.3 seconds
Infiniti 2.5 "

One big difference is that in the Infiniti three rapid presses kills the engine, while you have to hold the button down 3.3+ seconds with the others. Why the difference?

As to the "brakes wouldn't stop the car" crap, here's what Car & Driver (March) found:

"With the (V6) Camry's throttle pinned while going 70 mph, the brakes easily overcame all 268 horsepower straining against them and stopped the car in 190 feet - that's a foot shorter than the performance of a Ford Taurus without any gas pedal problems, and just 16 feet longer than with the Camry's throttle closed. From 100 mph, the stopping distance differential was 88 feet [longer than with no throttle] ... but the car still slowed enthusiastically enough to impart a feeling of confidence."

Then they tried the same exercise with a 540 hp Roush Mustang:

"From 70 mph the brakes were still resolutely king even though the pinned throttle added 80 feet to its stopping distance." Even at 100 mph the brakes were able to overcome the powerful engine: "The 540-hp supercharged Roush finally did succumb, chugging to a stop in a puff of brake smoke."

And in a wimpy PRIUS??

Nick, I fail to see how any of what you have written relates to the fact the Toyotas are suddenly accelerating. Are you maintaining it is all a hoax?

All the testing in the world of a properly functioning car means nothing when your car malfunctions. The brakes are computer controlled, remember? Does that mean nothing to you? Are you maintaining the problem is the carpet and people don't push the brake hard enough?

I really don't understand your message as it relates to computer controlled, runaway cars, which is what this thread is about.

Bill

 

[skywords]

A fella drove up in his new Mitsubichi and was gleaming with joy and wanted to show it off. I said hey that's the same company that built the fighters that bombed Pearl Harbor, you must be very proud. He grumbled and drove away.

Junk for Jesus

 

[Ron67Alpine]

I'm by no means an auto "chauvanist", I've had quite a # of different cars both US and Jap and now Brit. One of the reasons I wanted an old car is because, I feel safer and more in control of a car w/good old mechanical and hydralic controls that are simple and straightforward. I've seen old cars that accelerate wildly, when a single vacume line disconnects. It was always a simple matter of turning a key, get out replace the line and drive away, not having to press a button 3 times or for 3.5secs or stand on your head and stick your tongue out. How about that "safe" Volvo that puts on the brakes, if you get too close to the car in front. That's IMO a guarantee for being rear ended. The new cars have too many vacume lines and controls that are not user friendly. OK, I'm an old fart, that doesn't want to learn new tricks
That said, I've always thought Hondas and Toyotas were way over priced. Nissan, IMO is every bit as good as a Toyota and much cheaper.

 

[Nickodell]

Nick, I fail to see how any of what you have written relates to the fact the Toyotas are suddenly accelerating. Are you maintaining it is all a hoax?

All the testing in the world of a properly functioning car means nothing when your car malfunctions. The brakes are computer controlled, remember? Does that mean nothing to you? Are you maintaining the problem is the carpet and people don't push the brake hard enough?

I really don't understand your message as it relates to computer controlled, runaway cars, which is what this thread is about.

Bill

OK, follow me:

Repeat to self until it is automatic:

Jees!! Car is accelerating by itself.
Apply brakes. Hard.
Car stops.
Put in neutral or park.
Turn off engine.