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Toyota's Monster

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
OK, follow me:

Repeat to self until it is automatic:

Jees!! Car is accelerating by itself.
Apply brakes. Hard.
Car stops.
Put in neutral or park.
Turn off engine.

Nick, follow me:
Jees!! Car is accelerating by itself.
Apply brakes. Hard. - nothings happens
Put neutral or park. - nothing happens
Turn off engine. - nothing happens.

That is what people say is happening. Once again, are you saying the people are lying? Yes, the guy in the Prius reacted badly and probably could have put the car in neutral and stopped the car a few seconds after it took off, but the car should NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER have accelerated by itself.

Bill
 

wipeout

Donation Time
Are these cars drive by wire?

Just asking.

Im thinking that maybe, if they are, they've preceeded a bit to far, too fast. You'd think that they would have redundantcy out the ying yang.

LOL....out the ying yang....that was funny and I didn't even try. :D
 

Series6

Past President
Gold Level Sponsor
I figur'd it out...

I think I may have figured out the Prius thing. Remember back in the 60's slot car craze? We rewound armatures for 6 volts then epoxied the windings, put the thing in a drill and used a file to "even" things out, then ran them on 12 volt tracks? I think what happened was some one at Toyota has been channeling V6 Jose and secretly rewound several Prius's'ss'ss just for grins, to see what would happen. I think this is true as the Prius'ss'ss'ss I've followed on the freeway don't seem capable of exceeding posted speed limits.......:D

Long Live Fossil Fueled Vehicles!
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
Nick, follow me:
Jees!! Car is accelerating by itself.
Apply brakes. Hard. - nothings happens
Put neutral or park. - nothing happens
Turn off engine. - nothing happens.

That is what people say is happening. Once again, are you saying the people are lying? Bill

No, I would never accuse someone of lying until in full possession of the facts. I say that in a panic he followed a familiar pattern by alternately freezing and making futile acts like stabs at the brake pedal instead of ramming the pedal to the floor and applying the emergency brake until the cop yelled at him to do it by bullhorn from his own car. Devices like brakes and transmission selectors are connected mechanically, so "nothing happens" is bullshirt. And Car & Driver's tests with cars with 4X the Prius's power showed that the brakes will always stop the them if applied hard.

Anyhow, this IDB Editorial is significant:

CAFE Vs. Toyota
Posted 03/10/2010 07:51 PM ET


Auto Safety: As a Toyota Prius with a stuck accelerator races down a California freeway, no one mourns the victims of the fuel economy standards imposed by Congress. Forced into smaller cars, thousands have died.

We can barely imagine the panic felt by James Sikes, 61, as his Toyota Prius accelerated uncontrollably while he drove down Interstate 8 in San Diego County. We can imagine the continuation of the grandstanding by the owners of "government motors" as they further browbeat a competitor of government-run GM and Chrysler.

We do not minimize the safety issues here that need to be addressed, but we feel a sense of perspective is sorely needed. Toyota has been accused of cutting corners in the name of profit. The Congress that now huffs and puffs in righteous indignation can be accused of increasing the carnage on the nation's highways in the name of saving gasoline.

Sudden-acceleration events in Toyota and Lexus vehicles have been blamed for at least 19 fatalities and 815 vehicle crashes since 1999. That's fewer than two fatalities a year in a country that makes 1.8 million cars annually. How many crashes and fatalities are caused by the use of cell phones and text-messaging while driving?

Let us take a look at the Corporate Average Fuel Economy Standards enacted by the federal government in response to the Arab oil embargo. Lately, supporters have sought to increase these standards in the name of fighting climate change. They have neither reduced our dependence on foreign oil nor saved the Earth.

What they have done over time is to force Americans into smaller and less-safe vehicles. The rise of the sports utility vehicle was a consumer-driven response led by American families that wanted bigger and safer vehicles to transport them.

Recent research has been lacking, but what studies have been done over time paint a tragic picture.

A 2006 study by Ryan Bilas of the National Center for Public Policy Research documented the various findings that CAFE standards have cost thousands of lives. The laws of physics have not changed since CAFE was first enacted.

According to a 2003 National Highway Traffic Safety Administration study, when a vehicle is reduced by just 100 pounds the estimated fatality rate increases as much as 5.63% for light cars weighing less than 2,950 pounds, 4.70% for heavier cars weighing over 2,950 pounds and 3.06% for light trucks.

A study done by USA Today, using data from the NHTSA and the Institute for Highway Safety, found that through 1998, weight and size reductions undertaken by automakers to meet fuel efficiency standards had resulted in 46,000 deaths. That's the population of Pocatello, Idaho, wiped out by misguided federal regulations.

A 2001 National Research Council study concluded that CAFE was responsible for up to 2,000 additional deaths on the highway annually. Compare this to Toyota's average of two fatalities per year in a country with 40,000 highway deaths annually, a death rate of 0.005%.

While Congress ponders this and other cases of unintended acceleration, it should ponder its own actions which have resulted in the deaths of thousands of Americans.
 

MikeH

Diamond Level Sponsor
... I think this is true as the Prius'ss'ss'ss I've followed on the freeway don't seem capable of exceeding posted speed limits.......:D

Yeah, "Back to the Future" wouldn't have been as good with a Prius. :rolleyes:
 

MikeH

Diamond Level Sponsor
Devices like brakes and transmission selectors are connected mechanically, so "nothing happens" is bullshirt. And Car & Driver's tests with cars with 4X the Prius's power showed that the brakes will always stop the them if applied hard.

But everthing is going through the computer. And the article I read said the CHP officer said that the brakes were significantly burned.



"Todd Neibert, the CHP officer who gave instructions to Sikes over a loudspeaker as they went east on mountainous Interstate 8 in San Diego County Monday afternoon, said he smelled burning brakes when he caught up with the Prius.

The officer said he told Sikes to push the brake pedal to the floor and apply the emergency brakes as the Prius neared 85 mph. The car slowed to about 55 mph, at which time Sikes says he turned off the ignition and the car came to a stop.

"The brakes were definitely down to hardly any material," Neibert told reporters Tuesday. "There was a bunch of brake material on the ground and inside the wheels."

The officer found the floor mat properly placed and the accelerator and brake pedals in correct resting position."


I really think the "Horse is Dead" on this one. :rolleyes:
 

wipeout

Donation Time
so what you're all saying is...I should trade in my prius for a pinto? would cash for clunkers cover that? :D
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Are these cars drive by wire?

Just asking.

Im thinking that maybe, if they are, they've preceeded a bit to far, too fast. You'd think that they would have redundantcy out the ying yang.

LOL....out the ying yang....that was funny and I didn't even try. :D

It seems the answer is yes. All that is needed at this point is elimination of the mechanical steering link. It seems the only driver input that is not subject to approval by the computer are steering wheel input and transmission gear position, i.e., park neutral, drive. However, transmissions have had internal safeties and interlocks (can't put the car in Park at speed) from day one and I have no idea how far Toyota has taken that concept. I think its possible the transmission will ignore your commands under certain conditions, say your going above 50 with wide open throttle. If anyone knows, I'd sure like for them to post the info.

How far has this been taken? As to the brakes, the Lexus ES 350 has a braking feature that monitors pedal pressure and how braking was initiated to decide if braking effort needs to be increased. Also, as part of the skid control system, the computer can apply the brake on any wheel(s) without pedal input from the driver. Another feature is Electronic Brakeforce Distribution, which modulates hydraulic pressure to the brakes. This is not a part of the Anti Skid. I don't know if it can decrease pressure, but I suspect it can, which is causing the "It won't stop" condition. Braking on the Prius is controlled entirely by the computer. Under light braking conditions, all braking is electronic, with the electric motor acting as a generator and electricity is stored in the batteries. For the final stop, the computer engages the brakes. Under increased pedal pressure, the computer engages the brakes at higher speed. And of course, the compute shuts down like a lot of PC's, it is data input that is analysed and acted upon by the computer. The big difference, you can't unplugged the damn thing.

Bill
 

mikephillips

Donation Time
Nick I'd say that as long as they're are vehicles of significately different sizes/weights running together on the highways, and the fact that cars are built to a cost, means there will always be fatalities in the lighter one. I think the big question is, how much of them could be avoided if there was strict training for drivers and strict enforcement of standards, for them and for road design. How many times have any of us seen someone cut off a truck, suddenly turn, and otherwise not seem to understand the potential ramifications of their actions. I used to do about 20 miles each way to work on I71 here in southern Ohio and the number of people I saw who seemed unaware of how close they came to greeting God was troubling. If we want to decrease injury and death that in my opinion is the one thing that would make a real difference.
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
Nick I'd say that as long as they're are vehicles of significately different sizes/weights running together on the highways, and the fact that cars are built to a cost, means there will always be fatalities in the lighter one. I think the big question is, how much of them could be avoided if there was strict training for drivers and strict enforcement of standards, for them and for road design. How many times have any of us seen someone cut off a truck, suddenly turn, and otherwise not seem to understand the potential ramifications of their actions. I used to do about 20 miles each way to work on I71 here in southern Ohio and the number of people I saw who seemed unaware of how close they came to greeting God was troubling. If we want to decrease injury and death that in my opinion is the one thing that would make a real difference.

We regard driving as a right, while in other countries it is a privilege. I'm not saying either is the only way, just different. I was in Germany long enough to have to take my driver's test, and you are not even allowed to book it until you have completed a state-run course and passed the written test (rather like private pilot). The failure rate was around 45% on either the written or road test. And you can be pulled over and fined for doing any of the things many Americans consider Ok, like using a cell phone, drinking coffee, eating a sandwich etc.

It's very similar in France, which has road-side "courts." The tests in all European countries that I have been in involve both city and highway driving, and you can be failed for going too cautiously. In Germany I was warned of this, and told to drive at the speed the posted limits and road/traffic conditions allowed. Europeans taking the typical US test, with its slow-speed crawl round a marked course behind a police barracks, plus the dreaded parallel parking, are amused and horrified.

When I took my British test in the 1950s, auto transmission was a virtually unknown luxury. Part of the test was to park on a steep hill, whereupon the examiner would get out and place a wooden match box (empty) behind a rear wheel. You had to start off from rest, using handbrake, clutch and throttle judiciously, together, to get moving without crushing the box (or, "sorry, see you in six weeks.") If you took the test in an auto trans, you license was endorsed and you were not permitted to drive a stick shift unless you passed the test in that.

However, all that and above; yesterday the US Dept. of Trans. reported the lowest traffic fatalities in the US since 1954 - almost 10,000 less than ten years ago. Seems more use of seatbelts and an increasing crackdown on DUI are responsible.

Bill: You can actually ram the transmission into PARK while on the move. The parking pawl is designed to skip over the teeth of the cogwheel at anything over 5 mph or so, to prevent locking the wheels.

Stop Press: Seems the Prius guy may have been trying to get some dough out of Toyota by faking the problem. Seems he went bankrupt some time ago, owes $700,000, and is even behind in his Prius payments. So maybe he is a liar after all.
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
There is a new video, it got booted off of youtube presumably for profanity.

Not sure where to find it now, but the creator basically demeans the people having this problem and goes through a variety of "demonstrations" while demeaning people who dont get how to drive.

Oh and the vid creator is wearing a mask to conceal his face.
Funny in most respects but definitely crass.

If you can find it, its worth the time to watch.
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Bill: You can actually ram the transmission into PARK while on the move. The parking pawl is designed to skip over the teeth of the cogwheel at anything over 5 mph or so, to prevent locking the wheels.

I suppose whether or not the tranny is actually in "Park" when the pawl is skipping over the teeth. But never mind. My point was the transmissions are designed not to self destruct while carrying out basic commands from the driver. You confirmed that.

Another one is to put the trans into reverse at say, 65. I've never done it, but have been told the transmission simply downshifts into successively lower gears until a speed is reached that reverse can be engaged without harm to the transmission. Would you please confirm that for me? I don't have any automatics to try it on.

Bill:)
 

Ken Ellis

Donation Time
A mid-70s AMC Matador, (no positraction) traveling forward at 20 mph will go directly into reverse and survive. That's all I'm saying on the matter...:eek:

Ken
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
Another one is to put the trans into reverse at say, 65. I've never done it, but have been told the transmission simply downshifts into successively lower gears until a speed is reached that reverse can be engaged without harm to the transmission. Would you please confirm that for me? I don't have any automatics to try it on.

Bill:)

A few days after arriving in the US, while driving my new 1969 company Impala on the "wrong" side of the road, with the wheel also on the wrong side, in a car twice as big as my Rapier back in England, and with the new experience of auto trans, I accidentally put it into reverse at around 60 on I95 west of Boston. It just made a strange noise, bucked once and then went into 2nd. ratio.

No harm; in fact when I was promoted to the HQ in Radnor, PA., I bought the car at a discount from the leasing firm and drove it for two more years until I bought my TransAm. The friend I sold it to drove it another 3 years and then gave it to his son. The last I heard, it had 200K+ on the clock on the original tranny.
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
I watched Toyota's press conference. I noticed they did their best to cast doubt on Mr. Sikes' story, but stopped short of calling him out. Just talked about inconsistencies. Plant a seed of doubt type of thing, while avoiding a defamation of character lawsuit.

But the the PR dude did confirm the brakes were totally cooked. He also stated they were able to cook the brakes with continued light application of the brakes. But, at the same time, the system worked flawlessy. The system does not apply the brakes under light pressure, instead depends on regenerative braking. At least that is my understanding of the idea behind hybrid vehicles. So how did they do that? Was a portion of the system deactivated? Maybe the battery pack disconnected? When the brakes were applied with moderate force, the engine shut off as programmed. How did Sikes cook the brakes?

Any ideas? As things stand now, to me, the press conference confirms there was a problem.

Bill
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
Fronts were cooked, backs were not.

If the emergency brake was being used, why is that?

Black box also logged repeated light braking and full accelerator cycling, complementary to one another.
I wonder if Mr. Sikes knew all that was getting logged?

In this case looks like Mr. Sikes is about to get hammered for libel.
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Fronts were cooked, backs were not.

If the emergency brake was being used, why is that?

Black box also logged repeated light braking and full accelerator cycling, complementary to one another.
I wonder if Mr. Sikes knew all that was getting logged?

In this case looks like Mr. Sikes is about to get hammered for libel.
Parking brake was used only at the end of the "episode". How the fronts could be cooked and the rears not, is another interesting thing that baffles me. Maybe the rear brakes are parking brakes only?

There was nothing in the press conference describing the braking - accelerator cycling, only that numerous applications of each were recorded. But that is significant, but I thought light braking was all regenerative.

So light braking involves use of the service brakes on the Prious? My only experience has been with my son's Honda and it held the brakes off until the braking got pretty serious or the car slowed to the point the regenerative braking was no longer effective. If you paid attention, you could actually tell when the transfer took place. It was especially obvious if you watched the regenerative graph while slowing/stopping. You would feel more braking effort with no increase (or reduction) in regenerative current flow.

Bill
 
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