Toyota's Monster

[Bill Blue]

There is a conversation going on at the Locost.com site about Toyota's unintended acceleration problems. This very interesting video of a women testifying before Congress was posted.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/35538073#35541821
In her testimony she said that Toyota's claim the brakes would always slow the car was not true. Someone thought it was impossible for the brakes not to slow the car. This was posted in response:

[/quote]

Can you believe that? You cannot apply the brakes without going through the computer. I don't see any way Toyota can determine what is causing all the problems. It appears the only function the driver has 100% control of is the steering. I think we are going to see some backpeddling by auto manufacturers on the computerization of essential controls.

Bill

 

[socorob]

There was a story on yahoo news a week or so ago. I didn't get to reAd it just gave it a skim. Apparently one of the 1st incidents of the malfunctioning happening ended up causing a death and the guy is sitting in jail because of it. Nobody believed his story of the car just taking off by itself.

 

[jumpinjan]

That's just the skid control ECU, and dedicated to just that function, apearently. I was concerned that they were getting cheap with the number of CPU chips (or MCUs) and was multi-tasking some critical control routines just to reduce the number of chips (and reduce $$$/car)
Jan

 

[Bill Blue]

That's just the skid control ECU, and dedicated to just that function, apearently. I was concerned that they were getting cheap with the number of CPU chips (or MCUs) and was multi-tasking some critical control routines just to reduce the number of chips (and reduce $$$/car)
Jan

So you see nothing ominous in all of those brake related sensors? What happens if you apply the brakes and the ECU does not see a signal from the brake stoke sensor?

Bill

 

[John W]

You don't have to read much of that diagram to see "wheel cylinder pressure sensor" four times, at least once for each wheel. I had three thoughts. Is the gas petal problem also? (that I haven't followed at all, obviously). Wouldn't all cars be made this way? And also, these sensors would almost for sure be for information only. A sensor with any malfunction potential wouldn't be used to control pressure, just monitor it, seems like.

 

[RootesRacer]

Just turn the car off and stand on the brakes, put the car in neutral.

If the brakes dont stop you, at least the engine wont continue to pull.

 

[Nickodell]

Bill: Even with the engine (and computer) off, you still have braking, albeit without ABS or boost. I have turned my engine off on my Camry and you get brakes the same way that you do with an Alpine w/o the vacuum boost - you just have to lean on the pedal much harder. You can also steer, again w/o power assist. In fact, if you're going fast enough and turn the key while still in Drive, the tranny keeps the engine turning and you still have power steer.

And I can't work out why people don't think of the obvious, if the accelerator does run away - turn the bloody engine off! And you can do it without having to shift into neutral. One of the most celebrated cases recently in PA was of a Sate Police Highway Patrol Officer whose Toyota vehicle accelerated out of control. He gave a running commentary for a few seconds as the car accelerated to over 100mph, yelling that he couldn't stop it and "god help us" etc until it crashed and killed half his family. He could use his cell phone but didn't think of turning the key and/or shifting into neutral - just clung to the wheel and yelled into his cell.

 

[RootesRacer]

I design equipment like what is allegedly failing.
In fact I have just completed a drive by wire controller.

One detail I'll share with you is that I dont believe the electronics failed causing the cars to run away.
The reason I dont believe this is because there are so many fail-safes due to so much liability that I cannot even imagine that the ECU could not catch and stop the car in the event of such a failure.

Denso is the manufacturer of the engine and drivetrain control systems and these same systems are on other Japanese cars, why are they not failing too?

IMO the most likely culprit is a failure of the pedal unit (stick-tion of the return mechanism), or its like has been said, the carpet is preventing the return of the pedal after engagement.

If the pedal fails in any way (electronically), the ECM has several mechanisms to prevent the engagement of the throttle, and in a worst case scenario, could always halt the motor via injection or ignition control (both fuel and ignitions HAD to be functional during ANY proposed runaway).
If the pedal fails mechanically, there is no way to determine that the driver is not intending to accelerate (other than possibly the application of the brake, which is an electrical signal that should tell the ECU to limit throttle actuation).

If I am wrong about this, Toyota is going to be in a world of hurt that is unprecedented in the business liability field.

 

[RootesRacer]

Bill: Even with the engine (and computer) off, you still have braking, albeit without ABS or boost. I have turned my engine off on my Camry and you get brakes the same way that you do with an Alpine w/o the vacuum boost - you just have to lean on the pedal much harder. You cn also steer, again w/o power assist.

I am sure this is the case, those valves inline with the calipers would surely be normally open valves specifically for such a case.

 

[MikeH]

There was a story on yahoo news a week or so ago. I didn't get to reAd it just gave it a skim. Apparently one of the 1st incidents of the malfunctioning happening ended up causing a death and the guy is sitting in jail because of it. Nobody believed his story of the car just taking off by itself.

His car is a 1996 and not in the current recall group. As stated by the AP:

"Lee's Camry wasn't among those subject to Toyota's recent safety recalls, but Toyota did recall some 1996 Camrys for defective cruise controls that could cause sudden acceleration.

Lee's current attorney, Brent Schafer, said several '96 Camry owners whose cars were not in the recall have filed sudden-acceleration complaints with federal regulators.

Bob Hilliard, a Texas attorney, is preparing a lawsuit by the victims in the Lee crash. Hilliard said other federal complaints suggest a defect more widespread than recalled cruise controls — something with engine control modules that could extend to other Toyota makes and model years."

 

[MikeH]

Just turn the car off and stand on the brakes, put the car in neutral.

If the brakes dont stop you, at least the engine wont continue to pull.

Supposedly the woman said she tried shutting it off, hard braking, shifting it out of drive into neutral and reverse. Nothing worked until it slowed on its own. It was also reported that when the car, ignition off and in neutral, was being placed on the roll-back is started up and went to high RPM.

 

[Bill Blue]

If you can turn the engine off. On the California Lexus, you have to push and hold the "Off" button for 3 seconds. If the system is kaput, where is the guarantee it will turn off? Also, there is no guarantee the trans will go into neutral. The woman testified that she tried all gears to no avail, finally left it in reverse. Also, did you get the part about it restarting on its own with the key out of the ignition? And the cruise engaging on its own? There is something very bad going very wrong.

Anyone that has not watched the video should. It is very revealing.

Jarrid, the guy that posted the schematic is an auto tech and thinks it is possible that system noise is quite likely a part of the problem, either blocking signals or the noise is being interpreted by the computer as a legitimate signal. Also, he understands there really is nothing unique about the Toyota system, saying it is an application of widely available automotive technology. That bothers him more than Toyota's problems.

Bill

 

[MikeH]

... Jarrid, the guy that posted the schematic is an auto tech and thinks it is possible that system noise is quite likely a part of the problem, either blocking signals or the noise is being interpreted by the computer as a legitimate signal. Bill

Gee, wouldn't it be strange if cell phones, GPS, WiFi, LoJack or some other signal interferes with the electronics.

 

[RootesRacer]

If you can turn the engine off. On the California Lexus, you have to push and hold the "Off" button for 3 seconds. If the system is kaput, where is the guarantee it will turn off? Also, there is no guarantee the trans will go into neutral. The woman testified that she tried all gears to no avail, finally left it in reverse. Also, did you get the part about it restarting on its own with the key out of the ignition? And the cruise engaging on its own? There is something very bad going very wrong.

Anyone that has not watched the video should. It is very revealing.

Jarrid, the guy that posted the schematic is an auto tech and thinks it is possible that system noise is quite likely a part of the problem, either blocking signals or the noise is being interpreted by the computer as a legitimate signal. Also, he understands there really is nothing unique about the Toyota system, saying it is an application of widely available automotive technology. That bothers him more than Toyota's problems.

Bill

Bill, me thinks you believe too many things you read.

The transmission links on all these cars is mechanical.
The computer can ONLY control the shifting of gears when in a gear.

I dont buy even that interferance could be the culprit as the feedback mechanisms ofr the throttle and the pedal have redundant outputs that function in opposite directions and scale.

This makes common mode noise as a failure VERY unlikely.

 

[MikeH]

Bill, me thinks you believe too many things you read.

The transmission links on all these cars is mechanical.
The computer can ONLY control the shifting of gears when in a gear.

I dont buy even that interferance could be the culprit as the feedback mechanisms ofr the throttle and the pedal have redundant outputs that function in opposite directions and scale.

This makes common mode noise as a failure VERY unlikely.

Did you watch the video of the woman before Congress?

 

[RootesRacer]

Did you watch the video of the woman before Congress?

The one that sold (without disclosing the problem) her car to another person who has put down another 27,000 trouble free miles?

I also remember all the teary eyed testimony back in the 80s with the Audi unintended acceleration deal, which about ruined Audi and in the end showed no conclusive culpability on Audis part.

The congressional hearings are a farce.
Toyota cant possibly get a fair shake there.

 

[Bill Blue]

The one that sold (without disclosing the problem) her car to another person who has put down another 27,000 trouble free miles?

I also remember all the teary eyed testimony back in the 80s with the Audi unintended acceleration deal, which about ruined Audi and in the end showed no conclusive culpability on Audis part.

The congressional hearings are a farce.
Toyota cant possibly get a fair shake there.

So you say she is lying? If so, what makes you think there is any problem with any Toyota?

Bill

 

[RootesRacer]

So you say she is lying?

Bill

Couldnt tell you Bill.
I can tell you that her story about the car, her selling it, and the current owners experience seem to contradict aspects of her teary eyed story.

What I am saying is take everything you read or see on TV with a grain of salt.

The truth will come out sooner or later and you may be surprised as to the outcome.

 

[MikeH]

Without getting political, I agree that Toyota will probably not get a fair shake with Congress. After all, 5 non-union assembly plants in the US...

And not every Pinto exploded when rear-ended.

 

[John W]

American car companies bankrupt from making cars that fall apart and we're hauling Toyota through the mud over a gas petal. Who needs tarriffs.