Torque Steer

[Bill Blue]

As the tune is advancing and I'm becoming more familiar with the engine, torque steering is becoming very evident in 1 st and 2 nd gears. When it hits 3500 in second, it heads off to the right. What are the causes? Yeah, I know - torque. What are the remedies? The front end is all new except for three of the tie rods ends and they tight. The rear is all original. Bad rear spring bushing?

I can find a lot of stuff about torque steer in fwd but not rwd.

Bill

 

[DanR]

Not sure myself, but I had ALL NEW PARTS IN MY '67 and after driving a couple hundred miles it started to wander at times. Maybe just a feeling at first.

Then I took it back to the Frontend Shop that helped do the new work. Discovered a "weak" or loose joint" It allowed a tiny bit of motion. Or at least that is what we thought. Replaced it. Now it seems fine.

 

[Chuck Ingram]

Hi Bill

If I really really punch the Lister I can get some toque steer..it is more a power surge that causes it. A nice new rear end with limited slip,would most likely cure it.
Most of the time I am a gentle driver.I can't afford a speeding ticket as well we get demerits on our drivers license which means more cost for insurance.

 

[RootesRacer]

Chassis flex, rear spring bushings flex and rear squareness and alignment are all things to consider when the car tweaks its attitude under force.

Does it also shift with equal weight (minus the battery) in the passenger seat?

 

[Bill Blue]

Chassis flex, rear spring bushings flex and rear squareness and alignment are all things to consider when the car tweaks its attitude under force.

Does it also shift with equal weight (minus the battery) in the passenger seat?

Don't quite understand the question. The (minus the battery) confuses me. If the question is "Does it do it with or without a passenger?", I believe the answer is "yes". Amount may vary, I'll try to notice.

As usual, after posing the question, I've come up with a possibility: Uneven flex of the spring bushings. Its seems to be a logical cause.

Bill

 

[thomson]

I think you will find the front bushes in the rear springs have gone soft

 

[RootesRacer]

Don't quite understand the question. The (minus the battery) confuses me. If the question is "Does it do it with or without a passenger?", I believe the answer is "yes". Amount may vary, I'll try to notice.

As usual, after posing the question, I've come up with a possibility: Uneven flex of the spring bushings. Its seems to be a logical cause.

Bill

The battery is on the passenger side, which offsets the ballast needed by the passenger to balance the vehicle weight.
The steering gear and box also offsets to the driver side so perhaps an equal weight on the passenger side might be closer to neutral.

I'd still bet on flexing bushings being primary cause.
Make your own out of delrin?

 

[Bill Blue]

The battery is on the passenger side, which offsets the ballast needed by the passenger to balance the vehicle weight.
The steering gear and box also offsets to the driver side so perhaps an equal weight on the passenger side might be closer to neutral.

I'd still bet on flexing bushings being primary cause.
Make your own out of delrin?

Is there something wrong with Rick's?

Bill

 

[RootesRacer]

Is there something wrong with Rick's?

Bill

OEMs are made of rubber. Delrin will not flex.

 

[Barry]

I agree that a worn out right-forward leaf spring bushing is the most likely cause of the "torque steer".

Delrin (a thermoplastic acetal resin) bushings have no "give" and can be pretty harsh.

A medium-hard polyurethane bushing might be a better mousetrap for a road car.

Just my opinion, YMMV.

 

[RootesRacer]

I agree that a worn out right-forward leaf spring bushing is the most likely cause of the "torque steer".

Delrin (a thermoplastic acetal resin) bushings have no "give" and can be pretty harsh.

A medium-hard polyurethane bushing might be a better mousetrap for a road car.

Just my opinion, YMMV.

I like delrin becuase it is wonderful to machine.

Not sure if you can buy chunks of polyurethane like you can delrin, or even if you can machine it, I would imagine it would be rather gummy to machine accurately.

If you can buy a ready cast bushing of poly, then that would probably make the most sense.

 

[65beam]

steer

bill,
a few years back doug made some delrin bushings for the front end of the blue alpine. it didn't take long for it to be back in the shop to get everything changed. if you ran over a pebble you felt it in the steering wheel. for road driving the delrin is probably the nastiest thing you could install. everything vibrated. no comfort at all! it didn't take long for it to be back in the shop to be changed out. keep in mind that the front spring bushings are under your rearend.

 

[RootesRacer]

bill,
a few years back doug made some delrin bushings for the front end of the blue alpine. it didn't take long for it to be back in the shop to get everything changed. if you ran over a pebble you felt it in the steering wheel. for road driving the delrin is probably the nastiest thing you could install. everything vibrated. no comfort at all! it didn't take long for it to be back in the shop to be changed out. keep in mind that the front spring bushings are under your rearend.

Also keep in mind that the SI to SIII front suspension has solid metal front end bushings. I dont mind a little roughness for the added road feel.

 

[Bill Blue]

Also keep in mind that the SI to SIII front suspension has solid metal front end bushings. I dont mind a little roughness for the added road feel.

Also keep in mind I am 71 years OLD and take long trips in this thing. Six hundred mile days are not uncommon. Being able to get out of the car and walk into the motel is very important.

Bill

 

[65beam]

steer

I have to agree with bill. after driving on Colorado roads recently I found the SUV couldn't even cope with the horrible roads. why would you want more feel of the road?

 

[RootesRacer]

Also keep in mind I am 71 years OLD and take long trips in this thing. Six hundred mile days are not uncommon. Being able to get out of the car and walk into the motel is very important.

Bill

Yeah, I know I'll get there someday.
When that day comes, I'll probably have to so some suspension work
to keep it comfortable.

My alpine is more race prepped. Probably not suitable for a very long drive.

 

[Imperialist1960]

Rubber, Delrin, PolyU bushings

I prepped a full size luxury car for road rallying. Surprised a few people with that car and had good fun in it.

When I did, I used stock rubber upper/lower control arm bushings on the first pass.

When I did, I also tightened them down while the car was in the air and the suspension was unloaded. When the car was dropped, and the suspension wasn't on its tip-toes, it twisted up the rubber and then tore the bushings to shreds.

I went on a mission to re-engineer the front suspension points, and here is what I learned:

Delrin is a magical substance that IS delightful to machine. Machining characteristics have nothing to do with utility once installed on a vehicle, but it's attractive to the shade-tree engineer from a practicality standpoint.

It has zero give and will quickly or slowly destroy the weakest-link components that it touches and rattle the fillings out of your teeth and render the world in triplicate on rough surfaces when your car is in motion. Great for 20-year old males that want the last word in inflexible suspension.

Polyurethane comes in varying durometers, and can also be machined if one is determined and gets a hard enough durometer (measure of density). It is also hydroscopic and will attract water. When it does, it will squeak like you have mice in bondage whenever you actuate the suspension. Slap your hand on a countertop and slide it. The squeak that you get is similar as it binds and snaps in rotation under load.

When I reassembled the stock units with stock rubber and followed the procedure in the service manual, all of those problems went away, and I have not had a problem since. I wasted considerable effort on this.

I encourage you to re-fit the specified material in your suspension. If it wears prematurely, something else is going on that should be addressed, and that would include addressing the loose nut behind the wheel who may have not done his mechaniking correctly.

You'll go much farther retrofitting modern shocks to the leaf springs if you're looking for a project.

Stick with rubber. Low price, comfy ride, instant fit, and low installation grief are all attractive attributes that get underrated sometimes.

 

[Bill Blue]

Thanks for sharing your hard won wisdom, especially about the polyurethane. I had decided against the Delrin, but was unaware of the problems of using poly.

Could you tell us more about your experience with shocks? Somewhere I saw a sig that said "Knowledge unshared is knowledge wasted" I'm asking you to unwaste more of your knowledge.

Bill

 

[Nickodell]

Polyurethane comes in varying durometers, and can also be machined if one is determined and gets a hard enough durometer (measure of density). It is also hydroscopic and will attract water. When it does, it will squeak like you have mice in bondage whenever you actuate the suspension.

That was such a masterful description of plastic materials science that I almost hesitate to make a tiny, tiny correction. A substance that absorbs water from the atmosphere is hygroscopic, not hydroscopic. I'm sure it was a typo. [HyDROscopic means the ability to see when underwater.]

As a professional writer, I'm something of a language purist, which some describe by the acronym PITA.

 

[DanR]

I have been much impressed by Kenyon's ability to put forth his ideas forcefully and with clarity.

Wish I had the same ability,

I plan to stay tuned to his input.


DanR