Setting Camber

[sunbby]

Hi Bill,

Forgive me if this as a stupid question... With all this mention of swapping crossmembers and stuff, I was wondering if you are checking all of this stuff with the engine installed? Without an engine to load the springs I would think the measurements would be way off.

On a slightly related topic, when checking/adjusting do you guys ever use the WSM specified "gap gauges", where you use those spacers and load the car so that the suspension is collapsed onto the gauges?

Todd

 

[Bill Blue]

Chuck, I don't understand why it is necessary to count threads on the tie rods. It seems to me it is much more important for the angle of steering arms to be symmetric when the wheels are in the straight ahead position. I see that as essential in keeping the steering action true from lock to lock and the tie rods as the mechanism to achieve that.

When I started this job I had no idea it would morph into an alignment job, so I have not had the opportunity to check the flatness and level of the floor. Initial measurements indicated the floor is not flat, so I resorted to using a carpenters level. Checking the flatness is out of the question, I think I can check it for level, at least position the car so the front wheels are level and proceed from there with the level.

Todd, my measurements of the crossmember and components were made off the car. I did a preliminary front end set up off the car, using no springs. That gave me considerable positive camber. The measurements I am taking now are on the car, assembled with springs and shocks, engine and tranny installed, but no manifolds, radiator or a/c components. And yes, there is considerable difference between the test set up and installed measurements.

I enquired about the gauges several years ago. Seems no one uses them. Seeing how much the desired camber setting varies from person to person (or car to car, however you look at the situation), I can see why. I think it is most important the camber for both wheels is the same, with the actual number varying around zero. I'm hoping for about 1/2* positive.

Bill

 

[Chuck Ingram]

Chuck, I don't understand why it is necessary to count threads on the tie rods. It seems to me it is much more important for the angle of steering arms to be symmetric when the wheels are in the straight ahead position. I see that as essential in keeping the steering action true from lock to lock and the tie rods as the mechanism to achieve that.

Bill
its not mandatory to count threads but its advisable to have the tie rods attached at equal lengths.I mentioned to get the wheels straight.Thats where you need to be.after that point you then can you get to the start of adjusting toe in.Because one wheel looks close to straight you just can not go and adjust the other to compensate.
0 camber is not advised so yes 1/2 degree positive is proper.
Unless you really know about castor and camber you are guessing where and how.I have a friend who has a big shop that caters to truckers and when the american truckers are coming up here want to have their rigs checked they book him.He is old school as well as the new school .This man does not know about cannot be fixed.He showed me exactly what I needed to know about the sunbeam front end.How do you think I know all about adjusting the so called factory non adjustable castor angles?
Yes I even bought one of those tools and showed it to him.He thought for me it was an excellent tool.As for toe in I use an adjustable rod.That is the old school type of tool.The tape measure is useless as it flexes at least for me.
When you get it close I would advise to get an alignment at a car people recomended shop.
I have built 3 modified front ends.When I first took the Lister to my friend I was close as I had used the level system.What a difference on the ride home after he was finished.
I wish you good luck on this front end and hope it all works out

 

[Dusty Bin]

Camber settings

Hi Chuck,
I have been following this thread and as you have a good understanding of front wheel allignment, would you mind me clarifying how best to achieve this.

My Alpine when at rest shows the top of my wheels are both pointing out 5/8ths of an inch from the vertical (zero degrees), thus I have positive camber of 5degrees (when measured against a protractor).
When I add weight to the front end of my car, as described in the WSM145 section F pages 4 & 5 the front of my car lowers and the positive camber then lessens to about 3 degrees with the 2inch spacer stopping further movement of the suspension. I then arrange the top fulcrum spacers to get 1/2 a degree positive camber. Tighten everything up, unload the weights and test drive. Back home put car in exactly same spot as before and re measure. everything seems to cock.
Top and bottom fulcrum pins are good, new bushes, new top and bottom swivels and new roll bar bushes.
Can the settings be checked without the need to keep loading weights on and off the car? What should they be at rest and how best to achieve this.
Thanks

 

[George Coleman]

This may not have anything to do with Alpines but on Tigers the crossmember over time begins to sag because of the V8 weight over the front tires, or the car has been in a bad bendup. If you look at the top control arm pin and if the back nut is up aginst the inner wheel well then there is a crossmember or shock tower problem. Good Luck

 

[Bill Blue]

Chuck, keep in mind that I am not attempting the "end all" wheel alignment, just good enough to position the engine in relation to the steering arms (for clearance) and to get it to the alignment rack as soon as it is on the road.

Close enough to more than good enough.

Bill

 

[Chuck Ingram]

Chuck, keep in mind that I am not attempting the "end all" wheel alignment, just good enough to position the engine in relation to the steering arms (for clearance) and to get it to the alignment rack as soon as it is on the road.

Close enough to more than good enough.

Bill

Hi Bill
Now that sounds like a plan

 

[Chuck Ingram]

Hi Chuck,
I have been following this thread and as you have a good understanding of front wheel allignment, would you mind me clarifying how best to achieve this.

My Alpine when at rest shows the top of my wheels are both pointing out 5/8ths of an inch from the vertical (zero degrees), thus I have positive camber of 5degrees (when measured against a protractor).
When I add weight to the front end of my car, as described in the WSM145 section F pages 4 & 5 the front of my car lowers and the positive camber then lessens to about 3 degrees with the 2inch spacer stopping further movement of the suspension. I then arrange the top fulcrum spacers to get 1/2 a degree positive camber. Tighten everything up, unload the weights and test drive. Back home put car in exactly same spot as before and re measure. everything seems to cock.
Top and bottom fulcrum pins are good, new bushes, new top and bottom swivels and new roll bar bushes.
Can the settings be checked without the need to keep loading weights on and off the car? What should they be at rest and how best to achieve this.
Thanks

You do not mention that the castor was checked before doing anything else
First of all I'm no expert but I know what I need to know.This applies to my cars and my experience over the many years and paying for my mistakes.Then I was taught by my friend who always did the sunbeam's alignment till some years ago when he decided to teach me what I need eto know regarding them specifically.
As to camber I have never followed the manual as per sunbeam alignment procedures.
First castor must be addressed before camber can be actually set.It does not matter if camber is perfect and castor is out.If camber is perfect and you adjust castor,camber will need to be at the very least checked and I assure you it will most likey be out albeit very minor.
Now before adjusting camber be sure to bounce the front end a few good times to settle the suspension.Then I adjust the camber without a preload or suspension blocks.camber can be positive or negative but for the Alpine always go for positive camber of 1/2 degree with a plus or minus 15 seconds.That is as 1 degree equals one minute.

Now all that will be sure get a lot of negative resonses but then it won't be the first time.

So Dusty bin I would say mayby you can try to set your camber at 1/2 degree without the preload or suspension blocks and see what happens
It seems you know by now how easy to position the shims.
I also submit my cars are V8 equipped but are not tigers.
This then has the light shining differently

 

[Nickodell]

Total purists (or anal-retentive) insist that you should check all alignment settings with 180 lb of ballast* in the driver's seat, to replicate the weight of the driver in actual road use. It probably makes an insignificant difference, whereas having the car's weight on the wheels definitely does.

* Or more or less, depending on your own actual mass.

P.S. Excessive wheel bearing wear can also alter camber and effective toe when in motion.

 

[Chuck Ingram]

Total purists (or anal-retentive) insist that you should check all alignment settings with 180 lb of ballast* in the driver's seat, to replicate the weight of the driver in actual road use. It probably makes an insignificant difference, whereas having the car's weight on the wheels definitely does.

* Or more or less, depending on your own actual mass.

P.S. Excessive wheel bearing wear can also alter camber and effective toe when in motion.

Nick
If the wheel bearings have that excessive wear one would find some great fun down the road sooner than later

 

[Bill Blue]

Well, after all was said and done, much more was said than accomplished.

I realized that I had not yet tightened the fulcrum bushes. Doing that changed the camber significantly, although I cannot see exactly how it could have that much impact. Anyway, I ended with a slight negative camber on the drivers side and slight positive on the passengers. One shim made the passengers side a little more negative than the drivers side. Probably should have a 3/4 thickness for the passengers side, but evidently the standard thickness is close enough as all my shims are the same.

So for all my efforts I went from >1 degree negative to probably 1/4 degree (maybe less) negative. I know that Chuck said that neutral camber is not good and I respect that, but the Missouri Mule in me says that if positive is good and negative is good, neutral can't be all that bad. It is going to stay that way unless someone can explain why it should be changed or I find the road manners to be bad.

All in all, big improvement, but less than I hoped for. I still don't know why it was so negative or why it did not change to positive. It appears the condition of the bushes might be critical, but from what I could determine, the bushes that were in the best condition were on the side that improved the most!

Maybe all this will help others that face this challenge.

Bill

 

[Chuck Ingram]

Hi Nick
Glad to see things working out for you.Its amazing how we sometimes just overlook one thing and end up having problems.
When things like that happen to me I go back to the basics and recheck again.More often then enough it is one small thing causing problems.
I still say you should have some camber but that is up to you.You may still have camber as you are using the level method.If your floor is not exactly level you will be out on camber measurement.Until I did a wooden insulated really level wooden floor I found I had to place thin plywood under the tires as neccessary to level the car.How easy it is now as I even have the best spot marked on the floor where I do know the whole car sits level at all 4 corners
Again way to go and finally figure it out

 

[sunbby]

In racing, often negative camber is used, but I can't remember why;

As it was explained to me; during aggressive cornering, the more highly loaded outside tire's sidewall will deflect and with negative camber the contact patch will then end up flat on the road.

 

[Bill Blue]

I had the car's alignment checked today. The "problem" side checked in at .9 degrees positive camber, the other side .4 degrees positive. The mechanic said that modern practice holds that readings within .8 degrees of each other are "go". Does anyone know the change produced by one shim? All this is with perhaps 20 miles of driving after setting it in relation to the basement floor. If I even up the sides, should I increase the low one or decrease the high one?

The toe "in" was a hoot. 5/8" toe out! I knew it was bad, but nothing like that. Maybe a quarter inch. I had not touched it because with all the curves in the Alpine body and different front and rear tracks, I had very little idea just which way to set it.

All in all, a resounding success for the home team. It now drives like an Alpine should and the Armstrong power steering system is history. I think (hope?) the odd, on center, steering vagueness is gone. Haven't driven it enough to be sure.

Bill

 

[MikeH]

As it was explained to me; during aggressive cornering, the more highly loaded outside tire's sidewall will deflect and with negative camber the contact patch will then end up flat on the road.

I put negative camber lower A-arms on my MGB. Made a big difference. Along with Polyurethane, now if I just think about turning ...

 

[socorob]

Bill, for curiosity sake, since you had the crossmember out , do you think the crossmember from a sv would bolt into a s2 with all the newer suspension parts? I've never seen a newer series car but was wondering if it was possible to "upgrade" an older series with newer series suspension just unbolting and bolting.

 

[MikeH]

The toe "in" was a hoot. 5/8" toe out! I knew it was bad, but nothing like that. Maybe a quarter inch. I had not touched it because with all the curves in the Alpine body and different front and rear tracks, I had very little idea just which way to set it.
Bill

I used this toe-in gauge from Moss Motors when I did the front suspension on my MGB. Worked very well.

http://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=31750

 

[Bill Blue]

Bill, for curiosity sake, since you had the crossmember out , do you think the crossmember from a sv would bolt into a s2 with all the newer suspension parts? I've never seen a newer series car but was wondering if it was possible to "upgrade" an older series with newer series suspension just unbolting and bolting.

Robbie, I have no personal experience in this matter. However, all that I have read over the years makes me think they are a bolt in replacement.

Mike, the problem I have with the home brew toe setting is how are you sure the steering is even side to side? With the professional alignment equipment, you set the wheel in the position you want, then set the each wheels toe. As example, in order to get .125", the guy set the left wheel at .06", then the right wheel at .06". Can that be done with the DIY approach? With the clearance I have between the steering and engine components, the steering has to be pretty much dead center or something will rub.

Bill

 

[Chuck Ingram]

Mike, the problem I have with the home brew toe setting is how are you sure the steering is even side to side? With the professional alignment equipment, you set the wheel in the position you want, then set the each wheels toe. As example, in order to get .125", the guy set the left wheel at .06", then the right wheel at .06". Can that be done with the DIY approach? With the clearance I have between the steering and engine components, the steering has to be pretty much dead center or something will rub.

Bill[/QUOTE]

Bill
You are quite right in assuming the above.I had a good person teach me.
I use a laser level and tape measure to first position the wheels in line front to back.Fortunately I have at least 2 of them.I attach them to the rear wheels and from there it is easy to come extremely close to being dead on with toe.I also have a very level wood floor that is insulated as well that I built.Before that it was hard to be accurate.I also have a good DIY tool for camber and castor.Especially good once I realized the so called factory setting was off and I adjusted it.

 

[Tom H]

Bill, I am not an alignment expert but I have always "understood" that as long as you have the total toe in adjustment correct, it is fine, with some cautions. The only problem might be that the sterring wheel will be off center a bit. And I also assume that is true ONLY if the steering wheel were off just slightly. You do need to check that the number of turns to full left and full right are equal. And you can recenter the wheel by adjusting the tie rods equal amt in the correct direction. If the wheel is right and the toe in total is right, you have it.

Tom