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RX pine?

C

clodico

Has anyone out there had any experience with putting a mazda rotary engine/driveline into an Alpine?
 
Barry

Barry

Diamond Level Sponsor
It has been done; try going to the "old forum" and doing a search for "rotary". Note that you have to log in separately on the old forum in order to see all the categories or for the search function to work properly.

IIRC, the main issues include having to fabricate an exhaust header that will live at the very high exhaust temperature of the rotary engine and figuring out a way to adequately muffle the exhaust (rotaries are LOUD).
 
A

alpineiv

There was a guy in our club who had an Alpine with a 12A Rotary & Mazda 5 speed, and it worked an absolute treat. I don't know what sort of exhaust he had, but it wasn't at all loud, and gave no hint of what was under the hood. Haven't seen him for a number of years, so I can't be of much help.
 
lemansvk

lemansvk

Donation Time
Jim Leach of the Pacific Tiger Club tells me that this is a 'weekend swap' - of course Jim has owned and worked on these cars since whenever. I'll track down our last correspendence on this and see if I can provide more information. If you're near Seattle, you could do worse than track Jim down.

Cheers, Vic
 
V

V6 JOSE

Donation Time
clodico said:
Has anyone out there had any experience with putting a mazda rotary engine/driveline into an Alpine?
Click to expand...
Hi Clodico,

I would be leary of any advice Jim Leach might give you, because he talks a lot about things he doesn't know. He was the one that when I moved to the Seattle area with my V6 converted Alpine, was tellinbg all the guys that to do the V6 swap like I had, the complete steering system had to be changed. He also said a lot of other things about the swap, that weren't true. He had never even asked me how I had done it, yet he tried to pass himself off as an expert on the subject. I would be careful about him saying that the rotary swap can be done in a week end. I seriously doubt that a correct conversion of the rotary, would take so little time.

Jose:(
 
serIIalpine

serIIalpine

Donation Time
I have a friend with a rotary in a Sprite (he used the entire Mazda drive train) and while it was a fairly simple conversion (aftermarket, competition and stock header options are readily available) there are a few things you must consider: just about every rotary engine you might find unless it was VERY recently rebuilt will probably need to be in the not to distant future. Also with a single weber 45dcoe or holley carb your looking at MPGs in the low teens at best and they will use plenty of oil.
An aftermarket radiator with electric fan and oil cooler should keep you from getting to hot and any decent muffler shop should be able to fabricate an exhaust that won't get you any fix-a-tickets.

The good news is they're tiny, light and can be mounted nice and low. Well tuned and carbed you can look for 160hp without a turbo.

I have another friend witha Datsun 510 with a rotary and it's a seriously fast car.

Eric
'62 SerII
 
lemansvk

lemansvk

Donation Time
V6 JOSE said:
Hi Clodico,

I would be leary of any advice Jim Leach might give you, because he talks a lot about things he doesn't know. He was the one that when I moved to the Seattle area with my V6 converted Alpine, was tellinbg all the guys that to do the V6 swap like I had, the complete steering system had to be changed. He also said a lot of other things about the swap, that weren't true. He had never even asked me how I had done it, yet he tried to pass himself off as an expert on the subject. I would be careful about him saying that the rotary swap can be done in a week end. I seriously doubt that a correct conversion of the rotary, would take so little time.

Jose:(
Click to expand...

Jose,

I guess that the subtle irony of my post escaped you, the 'weekend swap' was in inverted commas - and I assumed that anyone who has thought about these things would know that the only true weekend swap for non-professionals is likely to be swapping an identical motor.

To be more specific, as others have said, it is not a difficult swap. There is no cutting of firewalls or changing of steering gear, no reinforcing of chassis rails. You can even use a Rootes radiator - the Hunter/Arrow rad will bolt straight into an Alpine, and its inlet/outlet pipes are on the correct side for a 12A. I have exchanged emails with someone who has done it and there are few problems apart from fabrication of the appropriate engine mounts, getting the cooling right and finding space for the muffler. Unfortunately, time and the vagaries of Microsoft have erased those emails.

As to your comments regarding Jim, No doubt you have had some personal conflict with him, but I don't believe that is reason to besmirch his name in a forum where he not present to put his side of the case. I can only say that over several years I have found his advice honest and reliable.

Cheers, Vic
 
lemansvk

lemansvk

Donation Time
serIIalpine said:
I have a friend with a rotary in a Sprite (he used the entire Mazda drive train) and while it was a fairly simple conversion (aftermarket, competition and stock header options are readily available) there are a few things you must consider: just about every rotary engine you might find unless it was VERY recently rebuilt will probably need to be in the not to distant future. Also with a single weber 45dcoe or holley carb your looking at MPGs in the low teens at best and they will use plenty of oil.
An aftermarket radiator with electric fan and oil cooler should keep you from getting to hot and any decent muffler shop should be able to fabricate an exhaust that won't get you any fix-a-tickets.

The good news is they're tiny, light and can be mounted nice and low. Well tuned and carbed you can look for 160hp without a turbo.

I have another friend witha Datsun 510 with a rotary and it's a seriously fast car.

Eric
'62 SerII
Click to expand...

As someone who has owned both Alpines and Rotaries, I would add only one thing to this. Unless you intend to use the car for racing, don't be tempted to do radical porting or use the IDA Webber. Rotaries are small capacity engines which even in stock trim produce relatively low torque in comparison with their horsepower - changing the porting is like fitting a wild cam in a conventional motor - power and torque developed at much higher revs, and the car can become a bear to drive on the street.

My RX3 (Savannah) with stock 10A motor except for extractors was once officially timed by the Police at over 120 mph.

Cheers, Vic
 
V

V6 JOSE

Donation Time
lemansvk said:
Jose,

I guess that the subtle irony of my post escaped you, the 'weekend swap' was in inverted commas - and I assumed that anyone who has thought about these things would know that the only true weekend swap for non-professionals is likely to be swapping an identical motor.

To be more specific, as others have said, it is not a difficult swap. There is no cutting of firewalls or changing of steering gear, no reinforcing of chassis rails. You can even use a Rootes radiator - the Hunter/Arrow rad will bolt straight into an Alpine, and its inlet/outlet pipes are on the correct side for a 12A. I have exchanged emails with someone who has done it and there are few problems apart from fabrication of the appropriate engine mounts, getting the cooling right and finding space for the muffler. Unfortunately, time and the vagaries of Microsoft have erased those emails.

As to your comments regarding Jim, No doubt you have had some personal conflict with him, but I don't believe that is reason to besmirch his name in a forum where he not present to put his side of the case. I can only say that over several years I have found his advice honest and reliable.

Cheers, Vic
Click to expand...
Vick,

If I were saying something of which I know nothing, you could say I was besmirching his reputation, but such is not the case. If he would like to answer my claim, he is welcome to post here, so that everyone can come to their own conclusions. I have known Jim since the late seventies, and I am not the only one hurt by his comments.

I didn't say what I said to put him down necessarily, but to let the guys that don't know him, not take everything he says as gospel, and then get themselves into a situation that will end up costing them a lot of money.

If you yourself said that you posted his comments in quotes, because you didn't expect anyone to believe it, you prove my point. Why do you question my comments?

Jose:(
 
C

clodico

Thanks for all of the replies. I was just trying to get a feel for what info is out there for this swap. I did not mean for anyone to get into an argument over it. Thank you all for the leads.
My series V is a numbers matching car (it runs pretty well) but I think I would like more power and more redily available aftermarket sources. I would like a V6 conversion, but I do not think that I want to cut up any part of my car in case I decide to restore it at a later time. Thanks again
 
Jim E

Jim E

Donation Time
Let me say this about the cut up bit... first off I doubt actually I would bet heavy that anyone who does the V6 conversion would not begin to think about putting it back... but let say you did... there are two areas that would need to be put back, so to speak. First the motor mounts that are cut off the cross member. Here you would be just as well off to simply replace the cross member. Now on the tunnel mods... here you could just get the back 1/4 of a tunnel from another car and splice it back in or the whole tunnel. Now while I doubt anyone would un-convert a car if you did it would be a drop in the bucket compared to the over all cost of a full on restoration.

You go V6 you will never go back!
 
V

V6 JOSE

Donation Time
clodico said:
Thanks for all of the replies. I was just trying to get a feel for what info is out there for this swap. I did not mean for anyone to get into an argument over it. Thank you all for the leads.
My series V is a numbers matching car (it runs pretty well) but I think I would like more power and more redily available aftermarket sources. I would like a V6 conversion, but I do not think that I want to cut up any part of my car in case I decide to restore it at a later time. Thanks again
Click to expand...
If you have a numbers matching car, and you are reticent to modify it, I really recommend not converting it. There are very few Alpines with matching numbers, so you might want to keep it stock. Having more power and reliability are nice, but not everything. Peace of mind is worth a lot more.

As Jim E. says, once you go V6, you'll never want to go back, for two reasons. First, is the obvious increase of performance, reliability, and general fun factor. Second, you will not want to go through all the work to put it back to stock, when you spent so much time, work and money to convert it in the first place. If you really have any thoughts about someday wanting to restore it back to stock, even if it is a remote possibility, don't do it.

If you want everything the V6 converted Alpine can offer, yet have doubts, why not get another Alpine that needs rescuing, and convert that. You could have your cake and eat it too. I would have loved to had a stock Alpine and also a V6 converted one. They are both very different animals, so would be the perfect solution. I will say one thing though; if you had both, you'd find yourself driving the V6 Alpine a lot more than the stock one.

I will repeat. Not every Alpine should be converted to the V6, or any other power plant for that matter, but should be preserved as is.

Jose:)
 
C

clodico

:) Thanks Jose. I guess thats the advice I was looking for. I guess I'll work on getting my stock alpine up to par.
 
Wombat

Wombat

Donation Time
From my view, one of the appeals of the stock Alpine is that it is far better than it has any right to be, given that it was put together out of the Rootes parts bin. OK, it lacks grunt and I can understand the desire for more, but there is also a skill in making good time in a car that is low on power.

Not trying to pass judgement on anyone, do with the cars as you will and enjoy them. But in an ideal world, a matching numbers car should be kept that way. But then again, they shouldn't be museum pieces. They should be used in the manner the maker intended.

Enjoy!!
 
C

Chuck Ingram

Donation Time
Tiger Tom had one in his 69 Alpine.It was back at Suni 1.A fellow here did one many years back.I believe it ended up around Toronto.At Suni in Montana there was one and it was fast.
 
C

clodico

I wonder if my girfriend will let me put off our wedding for a few months so I can buy it?
 
65beam

65beam

Donation Time
rotary 69

chuck,

TT and i discussed the roto rooter a while back.my wife and i are restoring a low mileage 69 and i have been consulting TT on some things.the roto rooter has been setting since 1989 and i didn't realise that the motor would be in bad shape after setting this long and will probably require a full rebuild if brian ever gets the body finished.i must say it was quite a car to drive in it's day.the changes TT made to the steering by use of the rack made a world of difference in the car.the whole car was a real engineering feat.
 
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