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In the buff

skywords

Donation Time
Reached a milestone today. It's painted, buffed and ready to remove from the rottessarie. The Dupont Chroma One proved to be a very user freindly paint that rubbed out quickly and easily with 3M super duty compond and finesset. Looks like a piece of Jolly Ranchers candy. Bolted the crossmember in/ the first part to be reassembled and attached. Now the engine has something to bolt to.
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
Looks really good... thats fantastic work rick. I know they are only photos, but fom what i see thats a very impressive job esp given its all in house.
 

JonPiz

Donation Time
I am interested in how you have the car mounted on the rotisserie. Is it mounted to the fender mounts alone and is the car chassis strong enough not to have any bracing in the door frame.
 

skywords

Donation Time
I am interested in how you have the car mounted on the rotisserie. Is it mounted to the fender mounts alone and is the car chassis strong enough not to have any bracing in the door frame.

It is attached at the bumper attach nuts on the end of the frame rails.

A better way is to use the jacking recepticals in the ends of the frame rails. Next car I do will be done using that method, I did however jump up and down on the car to be sure it was strong enough.

The bare car probably only weighs about 800#. The only time you have to brace the door openings is if you are cutting floors or sills or rockers or frame members for repair. The car is structurally sound without the doors. You could remove the doors and drive your car with no worries.

If you use the jack recepticals for the rotissarie you could build the entire car on the rotissarie, engine and all. But then you would have to figure how to get it off when you were done.
 

Rsgwynn1

Silver Level Sponsor
Reminds me of a question (yes, another one!) that I've been meaning to ask about repainting.

The original paint on my car (BRG) is in pretty good shape, considering it's 40 years old, and except for installing "dogleg" panels in front of the rear wheels (there are numerous rust holes), doing some minor bondo work around the front wheels and inside the trunk (small rust spots), and doing some bondo smoothing where the paint is chipped in a couple of places on the body, I figure the car can be repainted without taking everything "down to the metal." The undercarriage is solid and has been undercoated, though it needs some more serious welding to some frame support pieces that were temporarily spot-welded on by the previous owner. Otherwise, I can't find any significant rust other than in the places I've mentioned.

So I'm hoping to avoid the rotisserie (don't have one and can't imagine having one or getting one) and getting a pretty good paint job done without removing all of the original paint. Would light sanding and primer work before applying the final coats of paint? I may do some of the bondo work myself (lots of experience there--I once prepared for repainting a 1954 Chevy truck), but will turn it over to a paint/body shop for the final job.

I'd be interesting in hearing opinions about or experience with repainting. I'll probably go with a red clearcoat on the repaint.

Also, has anyone had experience with bumper rechroming? What does having two bumpers redone usually cost?

Sam

Still a loooong way off, though.
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
Sam, I needed the bumpers done on my SV a few years ago, and got quotes from a couple of local plating shops. It's a good job that my ticker is in fine condition, because the quotes were both well over $300. Each. Not including the overriders.

One shop owner explained that if I wanted a "flash chrome" finish prior to selling the car he could do that for a couple of hundred the pair, but a proper job involves acid stripping down to bare steel, then removing dings (there was one on the front). Then copper plating on the steel; buffed. Then nickel on the copper; buffed. Then chromium on the nickel. Much manual work. Since Matilda's restoration was done on a shoestring, that was as far as that went. The bumpers weren't all that bad, just a bit corroded and pitted - OK from 15 ft. away but they did let the rest of the car down.

By one of those miraculous events that happens occasionally in life, I came across someone who had bought an Alpine for restoration some 20 years earlier, but never got around to it (where have we heard that one before?;) ) and among the NOS parts he had assembled were a couple of bumpers still in the protective wrap from the manufacturer. And he only wanted $325 for the pair.:D

This subject has come up several times, and people have posted cheaper prices. It seems to depend where you live and what quality you want. The one I was quoted were guaranteed to outlast the rest of the car.
 

napa 1

Donation Time
Looks fantastic Rick. It will be great to follow your progress and learn from your techniques.

John
 

Rsgwynn1

Silver Level Sponsor
Nick, I just painted the set of Mustang II alloy wheels I bought cheap on eBay with alloy wheel paint (close to gun metal) and they look terrific. And I haven't even put the final gloss paint on them yet. If prices on rechroming are that high, I may consider doing something similar to the bumpers. I think this is known in the refit business as "Texas chroming." Well, I'm definitely in Texas . . .

I could still get them rechromed at a later date, anyway.

Still, there are several rechroming places in Houston, and you never know what they'll charge. May find a lucky one.
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
There is no need to remove sound paint. I'd block sand it with maybe 220 to even up the paint, then sand it with whatever the body shop wants as a basis for their part of the job, usually 320 or 400.

Chrome ain't cheap and getting not cheaper by the day. Here is a site that posts prices (sort of).

www.jpcustomplating.com/

Bill
 

Mark T

Donation Time
Wow! $450 and up for bumpers. I can see why the guy I bought my car from suggested that I remove the bumpers and store them in the house for winter storage!
 

Chuck Ingram

Donation Time
Wow! $450 and up for bumpers. I can see why the guy I bought my car from suggested that I remove the bumpers and store them in the house for winter storage!

And I used to think our number 1 chrome shop here was expensive.
Thanks as I no longer think that. I guess that why so many northern yanks send the bumpers here .Mind you it has been a year since I got mine done.
I once did have a kind of really bent sunbeam bumper and it was 180.CDN and I had to phone after unwrapping and say it was so good.
 

Mark T

Donation Time
I don't know what Toronto prices are like but I'll find out soon enough. I'm going to be getting the button bar from my Continental 2 jukebox rechromed soon. Hopefully TO prices are better than that website!
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Chuck, if you want to trade stories about what we once did, I had a Gremlin bumper strightened and chromed for $125. Of course that was in 1976!

I really don't know the economics of plating, but suspect most of the loot goes into prep time. While the environmental costs are high, I don't think they are the main cost issue. Ever step into a chrome plating shop? A lot of grinding and buffing, very little plating.

Bill
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
another note is that modern chroming is not as good as that oif 20 years ago+ apparently they are not allowed to use the same nasty chemicals as they tend to do even more harm to the people in the chrome shop than the wider enviroment. I know of a beutiful alpine that had all its chrome redone, and after a few years it started pitting, also i notice that chrome on the repro parts is often rubbing through or not looking so hot after a few years.. and this is on cars that are not daily drivers as they would have been when new. I think the best source for chrome platers is motorbike/hotrod people.. but they pay $$$$ for it.
 

skywords

Donation Time
The original paint on my car (BRG) is in pretty good shape, considering it's 40 years old, and except for installing "dogleg" panels in front of the rear wheels (there are numerous rust holes), doing some minor bondo work around the front wheels and inside the trunk (small rust spots), and doing some bondo smoothing where the paint is chipped in a couple of places on the body, I figure the car can be repainted without taking everything "down to the metal." The undercarriage is solid and has been undercoated, though it needs some more serious welding to some frame support pieces that were temporarily spot-welded on by the previous owner. Otherwise, I can't find any significant rust other than in the places I've mentioned.

So I'm hoping to avoid the rotisserie (don't have one and can't imagine having one or getting one) and getting a pretty good paint job done without removing all of the original paint. Would light sanding and primer work before applying the final coats of paint? I may do some of the bondo work myself (lots of experience there--I once prepared for repainting a 1954 Chevy truck), but will turn it over to a paint/body shop for the final job.

I'd be interesting in hearing opinions about or experience with repainting. I'll probably go with a red clearcoat on the repaint.

Also, has anyone had experience with bumper rechroming? What does having two bumpers redone usually cost?

Sam



Sam
The rotissarie is not necessary. Everything I've done with the car on the rotissarie can be done on jack stands. It only makes it easier, if you are not going to do a complete restore then don't bother. I would get the rust holes taken care of and the only way to do that is to cut and weld repair panels in place. You should be able to get a good quality finish without going down to bare metal.

Are you sure that the frame pieces you say are spot welded are not factory spot welds. The factory did a lot of spot welding or skip welding as some call it.

The chrome shops have us by the short hairs.
 

Rsgwynn1

Silver Level Sponsor
Rick, the guy I bought it from ground off the motor mounts for me before I picked up the car. He found some rust on the frame and spot welded some new reinforcing pieces on. Did a nice job as far as I can tell, but eventually I'll have to get it all the way up on a lift and get someone to complete the welds and check to see if there are any other weak spots. From what I can see there aren't any, but it's hard to tell if the car isn't off the ground. I haven't put it on jack stands yet because I keep rolling it in and out of the garage to do other work.
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Michael, as near as I can tell, the platers here use pretty much the same "soup" as they always did. Cyanide used to be used in many plating mixutres, but it is very toxic and environmental regs have about eliminated it. But a good plater can plate with other materials. It was just easy to use with good results, espcially when plating zinc. Was neveer used with chrome or nickle. We have restrictions on the amount of chrome 6 allowed in the air, some control it with surfactants, others use fancy ventilation. The big changes have been in chemical disposal and the regulation of organic cleaners. The air and waste regulations have just about gotten rid of them. Very expensive to use. Other chemicals, usually high pH cleaners, have taken there place and for the most part do as good or better job.

I have noticed the crappy plating, though. One example was "chrome" that had of hint of the copper base showing through and quickly rusted. That is due to inadequate nickel. There is no reason to be skimpy with nickle other than to save money. A good chrome plating job will have two thick layers of two types of nickle, followed by a chrome "flash". The chrome does nothing more than give sparkle to the nickle. When you look at chrome plating, you really are looking at nickle. Oh yeah, that plating job was 20 years old.


Bill
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
During college in the 50s I worked part-time for International Nickel Co. (INCO) in Birmingham (England) and at that time they were, natch, looking for new uses for nickel since the Korean War had ended and the huge amounts of the metal used in everything from bullet jackets to high-grade steels had slumped.

They had originated a process using three nickel layers under the chromium. I was just a chemist (or rather a chemist to be), but one of the metallurgists explained to me how the nickel layers were different and each had its own beneficial properties. Until then I had no idea just how thin the chromium is; just a few microns thick. INCO owned (probably still does) the largest nickel ore mine in the free world, in Sudbury, Ontario.

INCO, which was originally called Mond Nickel after the name of the chemist who first worked out how to extract the metal from its ore (before which it was thrown away as an aggravating contaminent of copper refining - the name comes from the German kunfer nickel, or "the devil's copper"), were instrumental in making the jet engine a practical motive power for aircraft. It's true that the Germans put the first jet fighter into the air, but their engines had an operating life of only a few hours because the turbine blades were made from stainless steel. The high temperatures and centrifugal force of the turbine rotating at 15,000 rpm and up caused the blades to "creep," or elongate. You could accommodate for this by making the clearance large, but this made for an inefficient engine with limited power, and soon even that would disappear and unless they rebuilt the engine it would self-destruct. The Germans, amazing engineers as they are, never conquered this problem.

The first British engines were also inefficient for different reasons, but they soon improved on this and also came to have an operating life of hundreds, and later thousands, of hours, due to the use of INCO developed Inconel (from INCO and nickel), a high nickel content, austenitic superalloy that resists creep. Some of the early 1940s engines, like the DeHavilland Ghost and R-R Derwent, were still in use in the 1950s.

The Soviets, also amazing engineers, captured many intact German jet engines but also could not counteract creep in their own jets, until the lunatic post-war British socialist government, in a gesture of friendship with their commie counterparts, sold or gave them several Derwents. The nice commies then copied them and put them into mass production (without paying a license of course), and that was the engine that powered the MIG15that shot down many British and America airmen.

One interesting experience I remember at INCO was during the summer of 1958. There was a Black & Decker electric drill that anyone could borrow and take home for use. And it had no power cord! This was the progenitor of today's ubiquitous cordless drill. You have to be old enough to undestand what an eye-opening revelation this was. I recall showing it to my dad, who thought I was playing some kind of trick.

INCO scientists had evolved a way of making a nickel/cadmium rechargeable battery like a kind of jelly roll, with the electrolyte sandwiched between layers of the two metals, then rolling it up and stuffing it into the drill's handle. We had to write down the number and diameter of holes we had bored, in a log book, so that the R&D dept. could evaluate the drill's capacity. Of course the thing became much more practical when the replaceable battery came out.

Another thing I recall was that they always had a lot of automotive parts in to test the nickel layer, and after they had bored a small hole in and done their testing the item was up for grabs. Most popular were the 5 1/2" and 7" Lucas spot and fog lamps. I had two of each on my first car.

The R&D plating shop used to have fun plating all sorts of non-metal things by first coating them in graphite. People brought their kiddies' first shoes in to be nickel plated, of course, but they also plated all sorts of eccentric things, like pencils, books and even a condom. There was one obnoxious guy who had had a coffee cup made with his name on it, as an ego trip, and one day when he was away they plated that, too. While they were about it they plated the saucer and a spoon, so the whole thing was one solid piece. It was a fun place for young, iresponsible guys to work, in those pre-Politically-Correct days. One of the managers walked with a cane, and we decided to play a joke on him. Each day, when he was in the crapper (which he visited daily like clockwork, carrying in the morning paper) we would take the ferrule off the end of the cane and saw about 1/16" off, then replace the ferrule. Every few days one of us, in rotation, was primed to remark that he was looking taller, and asked if he was taking medication or working out. This went on for about a month, and he even went to the works clinic to be measured several times, until he tumbled to the joke. If he'd found out who had done it the perp would probably have been fired.

I would probably have made INCO a career place if I hadn't decided to join the RAF.
 

skywords

Donation Time
Bill
In the 1980's I worked for a radial engine overhaul shop that did the silver plating in house for the bearings. I was in the plating area once and asked what was in a large plastic bag on the foor, the bag was open by the way. The plater said cyanide, my response was isn't that poison and he said ya there is enough there to kill everyone in the county three times:eek: It wasn't much longer after that they were outsoarcing the plating.
 
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