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Yeah AAA... Booo Lucas, Prince of Darkness

serIIalpine

serIIalpine

Donation Time
So I had my car towed home AGAIN. The good news is I think I now know why my car seems to keep flooding and subsequently not starting.

I put a voltage meter between the red lead for my pertronix on the coil and ground the other and with the ignition on I get 12+ volts but with the starter engaged I get around 6. Definitely not enough for a decent spark if at all.

If this is what's happening it would explain why the car seems to be flooding.

Anyone have a clue as to why this might be happening?

Thanks

Eric

'62 SerII
 
R

RootesRacer

Donation Time
When a car is starting, it is normal for the voltage to drop, usually to 9 or so volts. If yours drops to 6, then probably your battery is not getting charged fully. Are you running an alternator or a generator?

Are you running a ballast coil setup?
If so, do you have the starter switch lead wired to the coil+, thus bypassing the ballast resistor? The coil is designed to operate off of 9v, the ballast drops the remainder, but when starting you really want full battery voltage straight at the coil. Connection as I described does this (its also the way later alpines were wired, but not the earlier ones which used the ballast free coil).

I dont see how this would flood the engine though, could make for tough starting.


HTH
 
B

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Bad connection in the primary circuit or bad starter pulling too many amps. I think bad starter would be the most likely. Do you have access to a clamp on amp meter? Try stating it at night with the headlights on. Do they dim excessively? Oh yes, is your ground strap in good shape?

Is that enough mud on the wall?
Bill
 
serIIalpine

serIIalpine

Donation Time
I think that it isn't helping any.

I know if the car is on my charger and I try to start it I have more luck.

I have to say though that when I checked for spark the other day it was pretty anemic and The combination of a over fueled combustion chamber and a small spark don't make for a nice bang.

I took the carbs off and apart today and checked all that I could and all jets etc. seemed clean and clear. I also fixed the linkage as I think it was binding and making the carbs lose sync.

I dialed down the pressure to below 2lbs so this shouldn't be a problem.

Any other ideas?

Thanks

Eric

'62 SerII
 
serIIalpine

serIIalpine

Donation Time
The battery starts out with almost 13 volts and after 5 or10 mins of trying to start it eventually looses its uph. 11.8 - 12 volts and refuses to turn over with any velocity at this point.

Eric

'62 SerII
 
M

miket

Donation Time
a bad battery ground (battery to car, or car to engine) or positive battery cable will cause a high resistance and put down a battery really quickly.

I would first clean all connectors.
 
T

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
And what about RootesRacers question about a ballast resistor. YOu need more than 6 v on the coil to get a good ignition fire.

A) First you say 12+V drops to 6 V when cranking.

B) Later you say 13V which fades to about 11.2 after not starting but
cranking for 5- 10 min.

I assume you understand why B occurs. You run the batttery down - drain the energy from it - because you keep cranking when it doesn't start.

First of all, yes, the longer you crank without it firing, things get worse- the combustion chambers get flooded and the battery runs down so it gets less and less spark and more and more gas until too little voltage to even turn the starter.

So the question is - Why does the coil voltage drop to only 6 V even when you have a fully charged (12 +V) battery.

Gotta solve that. Ignore all else until you solve that.

1) Check (and tell us) if you have a ballast resistor in your ignition system - in series with the coil.

2) Check to see that you have a Ballast Resistor bypass circuit - a second wire to the coil that comes directly from the ignition- usually from a connection on the starter solenoid.

3) Measure the V on the battery cable connectors right at the battery. while cranking with a fully charged battery.

4) Measure the V on the battery posts while cranking.

If Step 4 shows less than 9 while cranking, either you have a weak battery (too high an internal resistance in technical terms) or your starter is drawing too much current- (bad starter).

I solved a similar problem with a new starter. Bought a rebuilt one at Auto Zone for $45 plus my old one- no shipping costs! They do not list one for Sunbeams, but it's the same as the one for a 1972 MG Midget. I could not really tell which I had - bad starter or bad battery - without a clamp-on current meter, but the battery was fairly new and I had kept it well charged whereas the starter was old and had been laying in my garage for decades. So I simply went with what seemed to be the best bet. Success. Starts almost instantly. But I first checked my ballast circuits as noted above.

If step 4 shows more than 9 V but step 3 shows quite a bit less, then you have bad (corroded) battery connections. Undo the cables and clean both battery posts and both mating connectors.

I'll bet one of these steps solves your puzzle.

Tom
 
serIIalpine

serIIalpine

Donation Time
So I put my car on the charger for a few hours and then set about checking things since my carbs seem to be clean and properly adjusted ( the jetting isn't optimum , I know but it ran pretty well up until a week ago).

One of the things I did was clean my plugs. They're Bosch platinum and they seemed ok, Med to dark tan, but I cleaned them with some 1500 sand paper so I could see metal again on the ground and the electrode.

I checked the voltage at the coil when I started it up and it went from 12.6-7 to 9.6-8 as the engine turned and what do you know but it caught right away and started right up.

The alternator kicked in at this point and the voltage went right up to 13.5 and stayed there.

The car seems to run OK now aside from the bog as I get on the gas and is somewhat more inclined to stall when it sits when I go to unlock my garage etc.

I don't think it's my battery as it holds a healthy 12.5 or so volts when sitting and the lights don't dim when I try to start the car. I know this is enough volts but how long should it hold a charge before crapping out from spinning the starter.

Thanks

Eric
'62 SerII
 
B

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Eric, 5-10 minutes of spinning a starter will discharge most any battery. They are designed to put out a lot of amps for a very short period. I'd say your battery is good.

The real question is, why does it have to crank the engine that long? It should catch in a few seconds.
Bill
 
C

Chuck Ingram

Donation Time
Bill Blue said:
Eric, 5-10 minutes of spinning a starter will discharge most any battery. They are designed to put out a lot of amps for a very short period. I'd say your battery is good.

The real question is, why does it have to crank the engine that long? It should catch in a few seconds.
Bill
Click to expand...

Does it seem to fire up as you let the key go?If so I suggest a sloppy ignition switch where the contacts are sort of worn.I had this once and I had to turn the key just till it made the starter to engage.
 
serIIalpine

serIIalpine

Donation Time
The thing is I've never had to spin the engine more than a few seconds when I wanted to start it. Even after the rebuild I did 7 years ago it started right up.

I've really changed nothing and it has become difficult to start leaving me stranded once and late for work twice.

It may have been that the plugs were too dirty or a wire I've since wiggled or moved has alleviated the problem.

I still think it's good old fashioned flooding and what I find puzzling is the fact that I've changed nothing in the carbs other than the idle speed adjustment or balance in over a year.

I'm letting the car sit over night and I'll see how she behaves tomorrow.

Maybe if I talk about how I'm going to measure replacement japanese engines tomorrow morning it'll get nervous and start right up.

I'll keep you posted.

Thanks

Eric

'62 SerII
 
B

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Eric, from what you just posted, I think it is time to suspect ignition. Does it have a nice, fat, blue spark that will jump about a 1/2" gap while cranking?

Bill
 
Jim E

Jim E

Donation Time
When I was running the 1725 with dual 40s if I flooded it and fouled the plugs it just would not start with out a plug change or I glass beaded the fouled plugs. I always wondered if it was prone to flood because the engine had dished pistons and the Vizard mod resulting in lower compression, typically this happened when the outside temprature was a bit lower. Plug change always fixed it without that it would not fire even with a shot of starting fluid.
 
T

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Eric,

So you see the pattern here, right? If the coil Voltage stays at about 9+ Volts while cranking it will fire and start, as your most recent experience shows.

BUT if the Coil Voltage drops to about 6 V while cranking, you will not start, but rather just run the battery down and flood the engine as well- just from fuel coming in without firing.

So next time it does not start right away, make the voltage measurements at the battery as I described as Step 3 and Step 4 of my earlier post. That will tell you if you are losing Voltage at the battery connectors- which can be an intermittent issue. Or it may show that the battery voltage itself drops too low when cranking- and that situation, if it is intermittent, tells me that the starter sometimes draws too much current.

As I stated in my earlier post, I had a similar situation, sometimes it started easy, and sometime very hard. UNTIL I replaced the starter.

Tom
 
R

RootesRacer

Donation Time
Jim E said:
When I was running the 1725 with dual 40s if I flooded it and fouled the plugs it just would not start with out a plug change or I glass beaded the fouled plugs. I always wondered if it was prone to flood because the engine had dished pistons and the Vizard mod resulting in lower compression, typically this happened when the outside temprature was a bit lower. Plug change always fixed it without that it would not fire even with a shot of starting fluid.
Click to expand...

Vizard mod + pistons = bad juju.

The dished piston reduces squish, and among other things, squish helps keep the plugs clean.

I'd say in that case, go two temp ranges up on the plugs.


Eric, if the plugs are fouling and the color is brown as you say, your carbs have changed, perhaps the bowls are overflowing sometimes, perhaps your bowl level is variable and the emulsion tube air passages are getting covered.

In any case going to a hotter plug temp will help keep the plug clean, just keep an eye on the plugs to make sure its not getting too hot.



BTW, 55F8s are the hot ticket for idle jets on my setup, I just added a balance tube and surprisingly the 50F8s that previously worked out were suddenly rather lean. After I test out the new PCV I just added, I may even need to go to 60F8s but we'll see. Its hard to say what you will need since your DCOE18s have 4 progression holes instead of 3 like I do.

Its a wonderful thing having a full set of tuning jets and emulsion tubes when tuning webers!
 
serIIalpine

serIIalpine

Donation Time
Jarrid

I have 3 progression holes. For the record.

The thing that puzzles me is I didn't change anything in many thousands of miles and now all of a sudden I'm having these problems.

BTW what ign. advance would your recommend as a starting point? Stock Dist. w/ vacuum advance disconnected.

Thanks

Eric

'62 SerII
 
B

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Eric, just remember that 90% of the "carb problems" are ignition. Especially if they occur after a lengthy time of proper running.

Bill
 
R

RootesRacer

Donation Time
serIIalpine said:
Jarrid

I have 3 progression holes. For the record.

The thing that puzzles me is I didn't change anything in many thousands of miles and now all of a sudden I'm having these problems.

BTW what ign. advance would your recommend as a starting point? Stock Dist. w/ vacuum advance disconnected.

Thanks

Eric

'62 SerII
Click to expand...

Hmm, weber says that 40DCOE18s have 4 progression holes, go figure.

On ignition, whats your compression ratio again?
 
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