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Ut-oh, Moisture - How bad can it be?
- Thread starter gordonra
- Start date
Bill Tubbs
Donation Time
Compression check
I just did a compression check and it came out:
1 - 140
2 - 150
3 - 142
4 - 140
So, at least that's a reasonable sign. As soon as I dig out my head gasket from my stash of parts I'll start going through the head removal process. I'm a driver, not a mechanic, so it'll be realllllly slow going as I document what I do so that I can put it back together again
I appreciate the hint and tips, guys.
Bill
I just did a compression check and it came out:
1 - 140
2 - 150
3 - 142
4 - 140
So, at least that's a reasonable sign. As soon as I dig out my head gasket from my stash of parts I'll start going through the head removal process. I'm a driver, not a mechanic, so it'll be realllllly slow going as I document what I do so that I can put it back together again
I appreciate the hint and tips, guys.
Bill
husky drvr
Platinum Level Sponsor
Bill,
Before you start taking things apart, try disconnecting and plugging the vacuum hose to the brake servo and see if that changes the smoking.
Good luck,
Before you start taking things apart, try disconnecting and plugging the vacuum hose to the brake servo and see if that changes the smoking.
Good luck,
Bill Tubbs
Donation Time
No joy
I guess it was worth a shot, but disconnecting/plugging the hose didn't change it. I let it idle for about 10 minutes thinking it might be residual burning off but I could see it still seeping out between the manifold and exhaust. Oh well. I guess the next thing is checking out radiator pressure, etc.
It runs so smoothly I know I'm going to hate pulling the head. But at least it's a learning curve. Thanks for the suggestion!
I guess it was worth a shot, but disconnecting/plugging the hose didn't change it. I let it idle for about 10 minutes thinking it might be residual burning off but I could see it still seeping out between the manifold and exhaust. Oh well. I guess the next thing is checking out radiator pressure, etc.
It runs so smoothly I know I'm going to hate pulling the head. But at least it's a learning curve. Thanks for the suggestion!
Bill Tubbs
Donation Time
Rich,
I didn't mean to hijack the thread... just thought it was better to dive in where someone else has the same/similar problem
Anyway, after doing some of the things suggested here -
Compression test - ok
Plugs - nothing except nice carbon coloration (i.e., nothing burned clean by steam).
Brake servo disconnect - no change.
I need to do a few more things. I will try to find the pressure tester mentioned to Rich and see what that shows. And I also need to check for bubbles from the radiator (haven't removed the cap with engine running yet).
After doing what I've done, though, I'm thinking there really may not be the "oily" substance I originally thought. It may just be normal exhaust running a bit rich. What comes out the pipe is pretty white smoke/steam, and when I put a metal shield behind it I get kind of a black splatter (minor) and water, apparently from when the steam condenses.
I guess the radiator pressure check ought to get me closer to the solution.
I didn't mean to hijack the thread... just thought it was better to dive in where someone else has the same/similar problem
Anyway, after doing some of the things suggested here -
Compression test - ok
Plugs - nothing except nice carbon coloration (i.e., nothing burned clean by steam).
Brake servo disconnect - no change.
I need to do a few more things. I will try to find the pressure tester mentioned to Rich and see what that shows. And I also need to check for bubbles from the radiator (haven't removed the cap with engine running yet).
After doing what I've done, though, I'm thinking there really may not be the "oily" substance I originally thought. It may just be normal exhaust running a bit rich. What comes out the pipe is pretty white smoke/steam, and when I put a metal shield behind it I get kind of a black splatter (minor) and water, apparently from when the steam condenses.
I guess the radiator pressure check ought to get me closer to the solution.
Nickodell
Donation Time
Bill: Don't remove the radiator cap with the engine running! Remove it before you start the engine. You say your plugs are carbon color. If they're sooty black you have an over-rich condition, which would explain the soot at the exhaust. They should be a chocolate color.
Exhaust gas color is a good indication of trouble:
Black - over-rich mixture
Blue - burning oil
White - water or brake fluid.
All engines produce steam; in fact each gallon of gas burned produces about a gallon of water, which comes out the exhaust pipe as steam. Steam itself is an invisible gas, but on startup on a cold day, when the exhaust system is cold, you will see visible water vapor and water dribbling out the tailpipe due to condensed steam. In very cold weather that vapor will be visible all the time as a plume from the pipe.
If you do not get pressurization in the cooling system (I mean high enough to cause gas bubbles to blow out the filler), the coolant contains no oil, the oil contains no beads of water on the dipstick and the brake fluid doesn't go down, I'd quit worrying and start enjoying. But check that mixture.
Exhaust gas color is a good indication of trouble:
Black - over-rich mixture
Blue - burning oil
White - water or brake fluid.
All engines produce steam; in fact each gallon of gas burned produces about a gallon of water, which comes out the exhaust pipe as steam. Steam itself is an invisible gas, but on startup on a cold day, when the exhaust system is cold, you will see visible water vapor and water dribbling out the tailpipe due to condensed steam. In very cold weather that vapor will be visible all the time as a plume from the pipe.
If you do not get pressurization in the cooling system (I mean high enough to cause gas bubbles to blow out the filler), the coolant contains no oil, the oil contains no beads of water on the dipstick and the brake fluid doesn't go down, I'd quit worrying and start enjoying. But check that mixture.
husky drvr
Platinum Level Sponsor
Bill Tubbs
Donation Time
Yeah, that would have been interesting... but I would never do that. Thanks for the warning, though... I HAVE done dumber things...
I'm going to do two things (along with the radiator check)... turn down the fuel mixture, and tighten the exhaust/manifold bolts. If this 'steam' is coming out of this junction AND the exhaust, then I may as well try to isolate it. The only thing that bothers me about it and still signifies something wrong is that when the engine is at operating temperature, that's when the 'steam' starts. Not while cold. And it continues to come out at a steady pace.
But little by little we can whittle down the issue!
Nickodell
Donation Time
Why am I thinking that is a definition of having fun?
I dunno about that. I remember a George Carlin definition of happiness: Finding that your brother married a nymphomaniac.
Bill Tubbs
Donation Time
Getting closer...
I got a pressure tester today and pumped the system up to 9 lbs. It stayed fully pressurized for about an hour, so it seems the cooling system is intact, i.e., not leakage through the head gasket.
However, I did notice a little residual fluid off to the side and below the carbs and on REALLY close inspection discovered a drip from one of the jets. I subsequently discovered that the jet o-ring was totally flat and not sealing. I have several other ZSs around so I pulled a jet from another and found it had a nearly new ring on it. When I substituted it, the leakage disappeared (duh).
I thought that this simple task may have done the trick and after checking everything over again I fired it up. It stayed smoke free for quite a while -- nothing like before, but when it got to normal operating temperature the white "smoke" started again. It seeps out the header/exhaust pipe connection and of course, out the pipe itself.
After running it for about 10 minutes or so, I noticed lots of black oily spots on the surface I placed behind the exhaust pipe. Coupled with the very black plugs I noticed the other day, I'm assuming that it's running really rich and I'll have to check out the carbs. I totally rebuilt them just before all of this happened <hmmmmmm> a few years ago, but...
Now my limited experience with gasoline is that it doesn't burn with white smoke, so I'm thinking THAT isn't the issue. I'll rebuild or at least re-adjust the carbs and get them leaned out. But I'm still in quite a quandary about what the source of this white stuff is. I know I'll figure it out eventually but I'll feel really stupid when I do...
I got a pressure tester today and pumped the system up to 9 lbs. It stayed fully pressurized for about an hour, so it seems the cooling system is intact, i.e., not leakage through the head gasket.
However, I did notice a little residual fluid off to the side and below the carbs and on REALLY close inspection discovered a drip from one of the jets. I subsequently discovered that the jet o-ring was totally flat and not sealing. I have several other ZSs around so I pulled a jet from another and found it had a nearly new ring on it. When I substituted it, the leakage disappeared (duh).
I thought that this simple task may have done the trick and after checking everything over again I fired it up. It stayed smoke free for quite a while -- nothing like before, but when it got to normal operating temperature the white "smoke" started again. It seeps out the header/exhaust pipe connection and of course, out the pipe itself.
After running it for about 10 minutes or so, I noticed lots of black oily spots on the surface I placed behind the exhaust pipe. Coupled with the very black plugs I noticed the other day, I'm assuming that it's running really rich and I'll have to check out the carbs. I totally rebuilt them just before all of this happened <hmmmmmm> a few years ago, but...
Now my limited experience with gasoline is that it doesn't burn with white smoke, so I'm thinking THAT isn't the issue. I'll rebuild or at least re-adjust the carbs and get them leaned out. But I'm still in quite a quandary about what the source of this white stuff is. I know I'll figure it out eventually but I'll feel really stupid when I do...
todd reid
Gold Level Sponsor
white smoke
Your description leads me to believe that you may have a hairline crack in your block in the area around the manifolds that only opens up when you reach operating temperature. I have run across once this in another car - not a Sunbeam. We were constantly losing coolant, but could never find a leak. The answer was we were leaking it into the exaust manifold and evaporating it before it exited the tailpipe. The leak was slow enough that there was no noticeable white smoke.
Was your pressue test done with the engine cold?
The white smoke has to be water (coolant) or brake fluid. If you run the car long enough one of these fluid levels will have to drop, pointing us in the right direction.
Your description leads me to believe that you may have a hairline crack in your block in the area around the manifolds that only opens up when you reach operating temperature. I have run across once this in another car - not a Sunbeam. We were constantly losing coolant, but could never find a leak. The answer was we were leaking it into the exaust manifold and evaporating it before it exited the tailpipe. The leak was slow enough that there was no noticeable white smoke.
Was your pressue test done with the engine cold?
The white smoke has to be water (coolant) or brake fluid. If you run the car long enough one of these fluid levels will have to drop, pointing us in the right direction.
Bill Tubbs
Donation Time
Todd, the pressure test was cold. I've been trying to get a sense of the odor from the smoke. It doesn't smell like steam, and water vapor smell/feel is pretty obvious. I do detect an odor but I can't place it as petroleum based, as in burning oil. Brake fluid and antifreeze was mentioned but I don't have the experience to guess if it might be one of these.
But a cracked block is not a good thing, obviously. That will take some deep checking, eh? In the worst case scenario, I do have a complete engine I pulled from my original SV before it went to reincarnate as razor blades and it was running pretty well before the car was mothballed. I hate to imagine the work involved in the change, but at least it will be an option.
My workshop manual is still in a box somewhere (moved a year ago) so I don't understand how brake fluid gets into the system unless it's via the hose to the Girling unit. I did check the fluid levels and they are all full. I guess I need to just let the car run for a while longer and see if things change over time. It's not driveable because I need to get work done on the wire wheels (2 of the tires keep going flat) but I can route the exhaust out of the barn and let it go for a while and see if any fluids change....
But a cracked block is not a good thing, obviously. That will take some deep checking, eh? In the worst case scenario, I do have a complete engine I pulled from my original SV before it went to reincarnate as razor blades and it was running pretty well before the car was mothballed. I hate to imagine the work involved in the change, but at least it will be an option.
My workshop manual is still in a box somewhere (moved a year ago) so I don't understand how brake fluid gets into the system unless it's via the hose to the Girling unit. I did check the fluid levels and they are all full. I guess I need to just let the car run for a while longer and see if things change over time. It's not driveable because I need to get work done on the wire wheels (2 of the tires keep going flat) but I can route the exhaust out of the barn and let it go for a while and see if any fluids change....
Nickodell
Donation Time
Sounds like another prime Weber 32/36 candidate.
Opinions will differ on this, but in your situation I would try a jar of Bar's Leaks. If you do have a hairline crack in the block this might plug it for a while. I had a leaky block like your in an old Austin back in the 1960s, and a jar (well, actually two) of B's L cured it for three years until I sold the car.
Pumpkin
Donation Time
leaks
I just think this, run the engine to normal range heat. Then shut off for about 10 minutes (to let the pressure down on the radiator) Make sure the area of concern is dry. You say it comes out "back" of the exaust meaning on the engine block? Take the cap off the radiator first, start it up again re check the area.
Then reinstall the cap, but not before watching the water volume going through the filler area.
If the leak is on the outside, then I vote for a head gasket on the out side near a water passage. If it is coming out of the exaust, I vote for head gasket any way. White "smoke " is not smoke it is water vapor.
Remember it does'nt take but a 1/2 teaspoon of hot water to make a vapor. If you have any repete ANY oily looking stuff in the radiator water, I vote for a head gasket.
My 2.9875 p
Chuck
I just think this, run the engine to normal range heat. Then shut off for about 10 minutes (to let the pressure down on the radiator) Make sure the area of concern is dry. You say it comes out "back" of the exaust meaning on the engine block? Take the cap off the radiator first, start it up again re check the area.
Then reinstall the cap, but not before watching the water volume going through the filler area.
If the leak is on the outside, then I vote for a head gasket on the out side near a water passage. If it is coming out of the exaust, I vote for head gasket any way. White "smoke " is not smoke it is water vapor.
Remember it does'nt take but a 1/2 teaspoon of hot water to make a vapor. If you have any repete ANY oily looking stuff in the radiator water, I vote for a head gasket.
My 2.9875 p
Chuck
Bill Tubbs
Donation Time
I never know if I'm putting the cart before the horse. I actually have a nice Weber and manifold that I intended to put on the car as soon as I knew everything else was running well. But at this point I'm more concerned with this immediate issue. If it turns out I don't have to do anything serious with the block/head, then I may just go straight into the Weber conversion. I've never heard of Bar's leaks before, but I see on a 'net search that they have a Head Gasket Repair product. Do these things really work?
Bill Tubbs
Donation Time
Yeah, things would be so much easier in person or at a meet
I'm just referring to actual exhaust from the tailpipe where I get black oily splatters in addition to moisture (from heat condensation, I suppose) on a metal surface I placed there to find out what's exiting the pipe.But there is steam seeping out from between the exhaust manifold and the header pipe, meaning that I apparently don't have a tight enough seal there. So one thing I need to do is tighten up that joint so everything goes out the back like it's supposed to. There's not a lot of steam here, just wisps seeping out. I wish I had a "Auto CSI kit" so I could just collect the vapor and analyze it
I'll try some of these tips and see what happens.
husky drvr
Platinum Level Sponsor
Bill,
This might not be relevant but about what temp, humidity and ventilation are prevalent when you are running your Alpine?
Do you have any idea if your PCV is hooked up and functioning?
When was the oil changed last?
I am thinking that since your engine seems to have passed the compression and pressure tests that you may not have a major problem. BUT because you say that the engine runs rich ( causing a high vapor content in the exhaust ) and that it has set for an extended period ( which could lead to moisture condensation in the crankcase ) you might just be starting to heat the engine enough to start driving the excess moisture out of the system through the PCV system.
You might try this list:
> change the oil
> put some fresh gasoline in the tank
> tune up the idle so it is not so rich ( don't forget to open the choke after the engine is running well enough to operate without it)
> leave the brake booster disconnected until you are satisfied with the engine's operation ( I am still guessing your problem may be the booster leaking brake fluid into the vacuum chamber which is then drawn into the manifold )
Good luck,
This might not be relevant but about what temp, humidity and ventilation are prevalent when you are running your Alpine?
Do you have any idea if your PCV is hooked up and functioning?
When was the oil changed last?
I am thinking that since your engine seems to have passed the compression and pressure tests that you may not have a major problem. BUT because you say that the engine runs rich ( causing a high vapor content in the exhaust ) and that it has set for an extended period ( which could lead to moisture condensation in the crankcase ) you might just be starting to heat the engine enough to start driving the excess moisture out of the system through the PCV system.
You might try this list:
> change the oil
> put some fresh gasoline in the tank
> tune up the idle so it is not so rich ( don't forget to open the choke after the engine is running well enough to operate without it)
> leave the brake booster disconnected until you are satisfied with the engine's operation ( I am still guessing your problem may be the booster leaking brake fluid into the vacuum chamber which is then drawn into the manifold )
Good luck,
Bill, stop leak products really are pretty good stuff. I've used Bar's Leak several times over the years, no problems. Very good stuff for minor leaks that are a major pain (or expensive) to fix. Just follow instructions on the product. Radiator stop leak can cause clogged radiators and heater cores if you follow the adage "If a little is good, a lot is better."
Bill
Bill