Ut-oh, Moisture - How bad can it be?

[gordonra]

Hi All,

I just noticed a small amout of brown matter collecting on the oil filler cap, and the radiator need to be topped off a a couple drives ago.

I am suspecting a head gasket or something cracked, so I pulled the spark plugs and found the back two were a bit moist, front two looked fine.

This would seem to indicate water on the top side, as if it is just a gasket....

Can anyone comment in hopes of managing my expectations?

I was going to take her long trip in about 4 weeks....

 

[gordonra]

Question:


Does the Intake manifold on a Series V (Strombergs) have a water passage?

In otherwords, could this problem be an intake gasket?

Thanks,

Rich

 

[gordonra]

Ok.... no one's answering....
So more information:

I did a compression check today, and found the following:

#1 - 130
#2 - 170
#3 - 165
#4 - 175

The moisture I noted at first was on #3 and #4, but they appear to have good compression.

Side note: I shot oil in #1 and it didn't get any better, but I also forgot to open the throttle on the whole test.

After reading the WSM, it appears that there is no water passage into the intake manifold for Strombergs, however there is for the Solex. That tells me that there is a passage in the block leading to the intake.

What are the chances that the intack manifold gasket is leaking?

Now I also need to speculate on the lower compression on #1....

Anyone?

Rich

 

[Tom H]

Rich, there's no water passage between head and manifold on the SV, so no manifold gasket issue for coolant. The passage on the SIV, IIRC, is a pipe at the back end of the manifold (to a fitting on the head) and a hose at the front.

Brown stuff? I assume you mean light brown milky type stuff. Every time I saw that on my Alpine it meant head gasket and/or head warped. Usually required milling the head slightly and a new gasket. You might try removing the radiator cap and running the motor to full operating temp. See if you see bubbles forming. Assuming there are not already any air pockets in the cooling system, if you see bubbles it usually means cylinder gases getting into the cooling - and that usually also means water is getting into the oil and that usually means head and gasket.

Tom

 

[RootesRooter]

A cooling system pressure tester, available at any radiator shop, will tell you the story immediately. It's a simple pump and gauge affair that is fitted to the radiator filler neck. Pump it up to 9 lbs, then watch the gauge. If the reading drops over a minute or so, and you don't see any visible external leakage, then the head gasket is shot. If the reading stays steady, the problem is elsewhere.

 

[Tom H]

Good idea. But do not go over 9 lbs or you may bulge out the sides of the heater core.
Tom

 

[gordonra]

It acts pretty strange... I let it run a bit yesterday after changing plug wires... hadn't run it for a week or two prior to that. Before I fired it up, I decided to pull the plugs.... that's when I noticed the moisture.

Today, I pulled the plugs to make a compression test.... (engine cold) No moisture. I read afterward that I should have made the compression test hot. I'll try it again hot and see what it shows. I'll also see if I can find a radiator pressure tester.

It's been a bit cool and humid here over the past couple of weeks.... what are the chances what I saw was condensation?

Rich, there's no water passage between head and manifold on the SV, so no manifold gasket issue for coolant. The passage on the SIV, IIRC, is a pipe at the back end of the manifold (to a fitting on the head) and a hose at the front.
Tom

 

[Bill Blue]

Under those conditions, pretty good. I have seen so much condensation in a distributor cap (Dodge), that I could shake water out of it. I have also had so much moisture in an engine that the plugs had to be removed, the engine cranked over a few times to blow out the water, then heat the plugs with a torch to dry them out.

Bill

 

[Jim E]

May be nothing if you do not get the car to a good operating temp for a while when you drive it. Otherwise it does not get hot enough to cook the water out of the oil. Alpines also seem to want a certain water level in the radiator put more than that in and it goes away to the level it wants which seems to be just a bit lower than the fill neck. Low compression in the one hole could be the valves are out of adjustment or a burnt exhaust valve. I would do a valve adjust before the compression test, then drive the car a bit before doing the compression test. Guess it could be a broke compression ring too which these engines are prone to doing.

 

[Tom H]

Good point about water level in Radiator. If you fill it to the top when cold it will for sure push quite a bit out as the water expands as it warms. Then when it cools it will look like it is low and needs water. That's why most cars now have expansion (overflow)tanks to hold the expanded water and then allow it to be sucked back in as the engine cools. My comment about getting the engine up to running temperature with the cap off is a good way to see about how high to fill the radiator. After getting the engine hot, and seeing the level overflow, stop the engine and see how far down it shrinks after it cools. That will be about the right cold level .

Interesting that the Owners Manual simply says "filll the cooling system, but do not overfill" . Woulda helped if they gave a clue as to about how full is full!

Tom

 

[V6 JOSE]

Hi Rich,

I have found that when a head gasket blows, the spark plug in the affected cylinder is usually totally clean, because the steam generated when the gas burns, acts like a steam cleaner. If the plugs aren't white, I would guess that you have condensation in the cylinder, which isn't unusual.

Jose

 

[Jim E]

A blown head gasket will also sometimes, not always, put pressure from the combustion chambers in the cooling system as in with the car running and the radiator cap off it will surge water out or even blow it out.

 

[gordonra]

Thanks for the reply everyone.

I'll post more when I can get back on it....

Rich

 

[Bill Tubbs]

Another one...

My '67 has been sitting idle for a few years now (last run in 2004) because I fired it up once and suddenly a nice oily substance started dripping on the garage floor and lots of white oily smoke was coming out of the exhaust. My first reaction was a blown head gasket but I've just never had the time to seriously investigate due to one thing or another. I've since moved and the SV is now in a nice workshop/barn/garage in the country and I have the space to take things apart (although I'm still looking for the time). Since it's been so long since I last checked it out, I'm thinking about firing it up and seeing exactly what symptoms it has. I do remember that it seemed to run okay despite the emissions, but I shut it down because I had no idea what damage I might have been doing to the engine. What is the possible damage if I DO start it and investigate? What exactly should I look for if I do?

 

[Bill Blue]

Bill, starting it should do no more damage than has already occurred. Blown head gaskets rarely cause problems, they are an indicator of a problem. In any event, you have a choice, start the engine to troubleshoot or start taking it apart. I'd start it. Check to make sure the oil does not contain water and the radiator is full of water, to the point of being to the bottom of the filler. This is overfull, but makes it dead easy to see any bubbles that might be coming from the engine.

Start the engine, look for bubbles in the radiator and see if the white smoke continues unabated or stops after a minute or so. Bubbles or continued white smoke are pretty good indicators of a blown head gasket. Also, if the car has antifreeze, you should be able to smell it in the exhaust. It is a peculiar sweet odor.

Bill

 

[V6 JOSE]

My '67 has been sitting idle for a few years now (last run in 2004) because I fired it up once and suddenly a nice oily substance started dripping on the garage floor and lots of white oily smoke was coming out of the exhaust. My first reaction was a blown head gasket but I've just never had the time to seriously investigate due to one thing or another. I've since moved and the SV is now in a nice workshop/barn/garage in the country and I have the space to take things apart (although I'm still looking for the time). Since it's been so long since I last checked it out, I'm thinking about firing it up and seeing exactly what symptoms it has. I do remember that it seemed to run okay despite the emissions, but I shut it down because I had no idea what damage I might have been doing to the engine. What is the possible damage if I DO start it and investigate? What exactly should I look for if I do?

Bill,

The white smoke and oily substance from the exhaust pipe could also be brake fluid leaking into the intake track. I would start it, but with the booster hose disconnected and the nipple for it pluged. If it is brake fluid, it might take a little time to clear the brake fluid to burn off, but the exhaust should then clear up.

Jose

 

[gordonra]

Update:

I haven't found a pressure tester yet, but haven't really had time to look much. I did however, run the engine till hot watching the radiator... No bubbles at all. No white smoke at all... I'm guessing at this point that my "problem" may be non-existant. Maybe I'm just getting paranoid at the thought of taking the old girl on a long trip.


Many years ago I had a Buick 231 V6 with a cracked block. Antifreeze getting into the cylinders. It didn't take much of a leak for it to make a lot of white smoke. Boy, that stuff would hang in the air for a long time too.

 

[Bill Tubbs]

As I recall, some of this fluid was leaking from where the exhaust manifold and pipes join, and I shut it down in fear of fire (or worse). Maybe I'll give it a shot this weekend after I charge up the battery and see what happens. I might even try to video tape it ... hmmm.

 

[Bill Tubbs]

Head Gasket troubleshooting

I charged the battery and decided to fire up the Alpine this morning after sitting idle for a couple of years (not counting towing it down to my new place about a year ago). After the obligatory 30 seconds of cranking to get the fuel flow in the carbs, it fired up and settled into a nice, quiet rumble. I forgot how nice it sounds and runs since I did a major tuneup just before this head thing happened.

Anyway, I let it warm up for a while and noticed the symptoms I remember from before. There is moisture leaking from the exhaust manifold onto the pipes, and there is white smoke (steam?) coming off of it and out the exhaust pipe. When this first happened back in '04 it sort of panicked me because I thought it might be fuel and had visions of an Alpine-melting fire. But since I don't smell fuel or oil from this, I'm thinking more that it's actually water seeping out. And that would be an indication of the head gasket, right? It idles just fine and blipping the throttle gives it a smooth, healthy sounding RPM curve.

In any event, I guess I WILL have to pull the head and see for sure, but I'm a bit heartened to see potentially less of a problem than I thought. Hopefully.

 

[Nickodell]

First thing to do is check the compression in the cylinders. A new engine (or one recently rebored with new pistons & rings) should read around 180-190psi. A well-worn one that's OK might read 140, or even lower. However, just as important is the difference between the highest and lowest cylinders, which shouldn't be more than about 20psi.

If you have a blown gasket you will probably get one reading that's very much lower than the rest. One cylinder reading below 100, absent leaking valves, hole in piston crown or busted ring(s) almost guarantees a blown gasket. However, if so you should also get pressurization of the cooling system and steam in the exhaust.