$ for conversion and engine selection questions???

[cooked]

I'm wondering if the kit can be broken down into segments or stages so that a guy could buy the mounts and save up for the headers etc. What are costs broken down per item? ? Who sells the kit now a days?? v6Jose?? Also has anyone heard of the pros and cons of a ford 2.3L Turbo setup?? I saw some vids of a alpine on streetfire and that setup looks pretty slick and it goes like hell. I'm possibly buying a 64 alpine that needs a rebuild and I'm looking for engine options. I also have a dodge 2.5L turbo engine thats in decent shape that I've been looking at possibly using. Guys that use them in RWD application use a dakota transmission as used on a N/A 2.5 engine or the use a 86+ turbo supra transmission?? Just some thoughts. I own a tr7 that I converted with my father when I was 14 yrs old using the ford 2.8L v6 and drivetrain including rearend from a mustang II. The vehicle has been parked for a number of years and now I want a alpine so I have all the drivetrain parts plus a offy 4bbl intake etc.So needless to say Im a fan of these engines and love engine conversions especially in british sports cars!!

 

[Bill Blue]

Pros of the 2.3 turbo - power, probably up to about 350 at the rear wheels. It will fit and has been done. Very robust engine and cheap to build. Can run stock internal components.

Cons- heavy. The guys at turboford.net say that a 2.3 turbo all doodied up will weigh about 450 pounds, about the equal of a 302. With all the turbo fitments also fills up the engine bay like a 302.

Bill

 

[V6 JOSE]

Hi Cooked,

I am still involved with selling the kit. The basic kit can only be purchased as a unit. If you were going to buy the individual pieces seperately, they would cost you a lot more. The price of the headers alone, used to be $750. The engine mounts were $250, and the transmission support crossmember was $300. We have sold the basic kit alone, for the very reason you mentioned. With the basic kit, you can set the engine in the car and then buy the other pieces as you can afford to get them.

I don't know what the new prices will be, but we will try to keep them as low as we can.

The 2.3 turbo Ford will fit, but it takes a lot of work to make it fit right. It can make a rocket out of your Alpine, but you will be on your own as far as making the custom parts needed to fit it and make it work right. The same can be said about the Dodge engine, only more so, because I don't know if anyone has done this swap before.

I guess it all comes down to your mechanical and fabricating skills. The biggest benefit of the Ford 2.8 V6, is that there is a lot of information and parts to make it a lot easier, but if you want to be a bit different, the other engines would work too.

Jose

 

[Bill Blue]

BTW, Jose's comment about taking a lot of work to make the 2.3 fit right can be extended to ANY engine you decide to put in the Alpine. I would venture to say most engines cannot be made to fit right without serious compromise of the Alpine body's integrity. Right Jose? Not a lot of space and it seems unique problems are encountered with any engine.

The difference is Jose has worked out the problems with his kit.

Bill

 

[V6 JOSE]

BTW, Jose's comment about taking a lot of work to make the 2.3 fit right can be extended to ANY engine you decide to put in the Alpine. I would venture to say most engines cannot be made to fit right without serious compromise of the Alpine body's integrity. Right Jose? Not a lot of space and it seems unique problems are encountered with any engine.

The difference is Jose has worked out the problems with his kit.

Bill

Bill,

You are right about any engine being a job to make it fit, but you know something, the 2.8 V6 has the least amount of problems, because of the strange configuration of the ports on that engine, and starter location. I has been one of the easiest conversions I have ever done. I was just lucky enough to have decided to do the conversion with the 2.8 V6, rather than some other engine.

The Alpine is a unique car, in that the engine bay is so small. I don't know why they made the fender wells so big, and the engine bay so small. It would have been great, and could have accepted a lot of different engines, if the engine bay were just 2" wider.

Jose

 

[cooked]

V6 Jose what is the best engine setup you've seen regarding the ford 2.8L V6. Is it worth going turbo/supercharged or should I stick with a N/A setup. If I go turbo/supercharged what do you think is a good engine recipe and what are things to look out for? Or do you think its easier just to do a nice warmed up v6. I own the v6 book from sven pruett and I'm curious to know the full HP and torque figures if I was to port the heads as explained, along with a different cam and use the 4bbl intake? Do you also feel the C4 transmission is of use or is the engine better with a manual? Thanks

 

[mikephillips]

Wouldn't surprise me if the wheel wells were bits from the the parts bin like the Husky floorpan and were larger because of that.

 

[V6 JOSE]

Hi Cooked,

The basic question is, how much money do you have to spend on making power? A street engine, like I recommend for every day use, will produce at least 200 hp. reliably. That kind of power in an Alpine, will make anyone smile. This engine configuration will set you back at least $3,500, and can cost more, if you don't do some of the work yourself. This engine is very tractable and on the freeway can deliver about the same mileage as a stock Alpine (24/26 mpg.) All this, on regular gas. Around town, it will use more, depending on how you drive it.

Turbocharging or supergharging, will set you back about another $2,000 to build the engine so that it lives. The bottom end will not take more than 300 hp. without pinning the mains. You will need special forged pistons too. The installation of either a supercharger or turbo, will set you back another $7/$9K, because there will need to be a lot of custom fabricating and fitting. At $85/$95 per hour, that will eat your budget pretty quickly.

My recommendation is to build the $5,500 power adder engine, and just use nitrous oxide injection. It is way cheaper than either a turbo or supercharger. The Hi Po engine will last a long time under racing abuse.

I'm not a big fan of Sven Pruett's book, because he is talking about a full on race engine, that isn't expected to last any longer than one race. It would be unstreetable, because the power and torque curves are tuned for high revs. The book does have a few good ideas, like how to port the heads and extra cooling holes, but for the majority, I don't find it practical for the street.

I don't recommend any automatic, unless you have a physical problem with your legs. Another reason an automatic transmission might be a good choice, is if you plan on drag racing it and you aren't real good with a standard shift. The automatic would be a lot more consistent.

When you get ready to build your engine, drop me a p.m. and I will tell you what I have found to be a good street engine and how to build it. Welcome to the Dark Side.

Jose

 

[Mod_Squad!]

Hey Cooked,
I love the power the 2.8 has. Much, much more than the stock setup of course. I have a spare engine sitting in my garage that I'm going to tear into and turbo/supercharge when time and finances magically align. If you're looking at the 2.3 turbo you should look at Scott Duncan's setup. I think he's almost done with it and it may even be for sale....
Have fun,
Bryan

 

[cooked]

V6 Jose thanks for the info!! The thing I dont like about the book is there is no performance specs on the motors he builds or different recipes for street use and racing use. Also are you able to use ford 2.0/2.3 forged piston on these engines?? If not who makes forged 2.8 pistons and rods besides TRW and Crower?? Whats a good cam to use?? Im also curious to know how much HP can be gained from porting the heads as illustrated in his book?? Also how much NOS can a stock block handle in your opinion without damaging the engines internals?? Thanks

 

[V6 JOSE]

Cooked,

I think the reason he doesn't give HP numbers, is that if someone puts one of his engines on a dyno, and it doesn't produce exactly what he said, he'd get sued. A good set of professionally done heads, should be good for about 40/50 HP. The cam you select will also affect HP, so it depends what your combination is. To receive the full benefit of all the money it will take to have the heads ported and polished, you need to use a four barrel carburetor and the Offenhouser manifold for it.

I think a stock block can handle up to about 300 hp. If you have a 200+ hp. engine, you could use a 75 hp. shot of nitrous with relative safety. There are several piston companies that will make custom pistons for you, such as Venolia and JP. I can't remember the names of all the companies that make custom pistons but, I would ask around at speed shops to see which company they recommend. You don't need specail forged rods, because the stock rods are forged already and strong. I would recommend prepping the rods, by beaming them and shot peening them before you get them rebuilt. You should use some ARP rod bolts for a 289 Ford V8 too. That would be the weak point in the botton end. I recommend balancing the reciprocating assembly for a start.

The cam I recommend is a dual pattern cam. The specs for this cam are on this board. You might want to do a search and find them. Jim Ellis posted them a while back.

It is kind of fun to dream about the engine we would love to have in our Alpines, but money and practicality will be the determining factors. Remember; there is such a thing as too much, when building an engine for the street. A more conservative engine will not only perform as well as the hot rod, but it will last about ten times longer.

Jose

 

[Jim E]

I am getting close to enough miles on my engine to strap on the NOS, was thinking a 50 or 75 shot, wet shot that is would not even try a dry shot on a cast piston engine.

My engine has the rods polished and ARP rod bolts, balanced crank, block is 30 over and was when I got it but still in spec so I just honed it. The block was decked for equal deck height side to side and believe me they are all off side to side. The heads have valves from a 2.9 with custom bronze guides, Isky springs and retainers but stock locks and the extra water holes. I spent a week or so porting the heads it is a misrable job and you will hate the heads by the time you are done. Cannot imagine what it would cost to have these crooked runner lumps ported. Just reducing the guide boss is a job let alone cleaning the rest of the ports up. The cam was ground by Delta and the lifters are Isky. Delta also supplied rebuilt rocker assemblies with special adjusters that remain where you put them. I used the upgraded oil pump.... ummm the ignition is a Dura spark distributor triggering a Crane HI6 box. I like the Crane unit it puts out a heck of a spark and has a rev limiter, got mine used off ebay for about $75. Have the Offy intake, there is a story there..... when you deck the block and mill the heads you have to cut the intake, I ended up taking the whole engine to the machine shop before we got it cut to fit right... Holley 390 cfm with a very light secondary spring.

This engine destroyed the first stock clutch I put in it the disc just exploded the lining off it. I then went to Ram and had a metal button clutch with a sprung hub made for it and they also worked a pressure plate for me. Oh and before that the engine twisted the guts out of a stock rear hub. My fault I did not change the hub keys.

I have around 3 grand in parts and machine work, not counting cost of the engine the port work I did and the engine assembly I did my self. Farm those two out and I would figure another $1200 easy plus the cost of a core. The parts and machine work cost may be hard to reproduce because I get a pretty good deal from a couple buddies who own machine shops. So walking in off the street I would expect it to cost more than I have in my build.

My S3GT weighs 2107 pounds with no hard top and is 51% front 49% rear with about two gallons of fuel, oh and it runs on regular gas.

When my buddy who tweeked the carb for me drove it he was amazed said "This thing is like riding a motor cycle." and "Mercy that thing can eat!" this from a guy who drives an all alloy motored V8 dirt track car. He knows a nice mover.

We are looking at running some differnt lobe seperations for the cam on the desk top dyno to see if we can build more cylinder pressure and what effect it will have on the torque and HP curve. Hmmmm might make for a good write up....


I will not guess at what sort of power I am making right now but I like it!

So once the goofy gas is on it well......

 

[cooked]

HMMM very interesting. I envy you guys who drive these v6 rockets. My gut is telling me to leave the damn engine internals alone with the exception of porting and polishing the heads, and adding enlarged valves and "possibly" a cam and headers. I think 200hp is a very decent goal especially for a sunbeam or the tr7 that I own. I dont have the time nor the $ to **** and fart around with experimenting with different setups. My wife wouldnt like that . Its hard finding someone to do a decent buildup in this city on a Ford 302 never mind exotic work on a 2.8L v6 ! Maybe if i lived in the States I wouldnt have this issue! Plus! try finding forged rods pistons etc for a ford 2.8L at a good price in CANADA!!

 

[V6 JOSE]

It would be relatively easy for you to get 200 hp. from this engine, as long as you have the heads done. It would still run on regular gas and be easy to drive.

I think your TR7 weighs more than the Alpine, so the performance wouldn't be as good, but I'm sure that it would be fun anyway.

Jose

 

[cooked]

I think the tr7 weighs in around 2350Lbs??. With the conversion we did on the tr7 nothing was changed in regards to the steering suspension etc I think the engine is lighter than the original slant-4. It was actually fairly simple. And the engine bay has "ALOT" of room with that 60 degree v6 in it. It is a very fun and different car. The other engine I think that would work great in the 7's is the Ford 3.8L v6 with its iron block and aluminum heads its quite a bit lighter than the buick 3.8-4.1 etc. Morana racing based out of Ontario Canada has some neat go fast goodies. Its too bad one of those wouldnt fit in the alpine without taking a plasma torch to it! Theres just something about the alpine I love it must be the fins or something!

 

[V6 JOSE]

Actually, the Ford 3.8 V6 isn't very good for hot rodding. In fact, they have a bad reputation for blowing head gaskets. I have intimate knowlege about this fenomenon, because my wife's Continental had this Six in it, and it blew the head gasket at 35,000 miles. NOT GOOD!! The NASCAR guys tried to build them for the Busch series, but they gave up on them and went to a detuned version of the Nextel Cup car's V8 instead. The Chevy V6 was a lot better engine. Being a die hard Ford guy, saying that, almost hurts me, but it is the truth.

Being a coupe, I would have imagined that the TR7 would have weighed more, but if it weighs that little, it should perform like an Alpine, with the 2.8 V6.

Jose

 

[cooked]

Very interesting! I've never owned a bad ford engine in my life or should I say Cologne V6 or ford 302 that was in my 86 Volvo 760. My 2007 Eddie bauer explorer has the cologne 4.0L v6 in it and I love it, even though its a tad bit gutless "you can only go as fast as the ******* in front of you" In regards to the tr7 weight the coupe is quite light its the drop top thats heavy. Its a great car, awesome seating position and theres a ton of them rotting away because of the sharty engines and transmissions. You can get them for dirt cheap, and personally I dont think there bad looking either. It beats building up another rustang or fire chicken!!!!

 

[Chuck Ingram]

I am getting close to enough miles on my engine to strap on the NOS, was thinking a 50 or 75 shot, wet shot that is would not even try a dry shot on a cast piston engine.

My engine has the rods polished and ARP rod bolts, balanced crank, block is 30 over and was when I got it but still in spec so I just honed it. The block was decked for equal deck height side to side and believe me they are all off side to side. The heads have valves from a 2.9 with custom bronze guides, Isky springs and retainers but stock locks and the extra water holes. I spent a week or so porting the heads it is a misrable job and you will hate the heads by the time you are done. Cannot imagine what it would cost to have these crooked runner lumps ported. Just reducing the guide boss is a job let alone cleaning the rest of the ports up. The cam was ground by Delta and the lifters are Isky. Delta also supplied rebuilt rocker assemblies with special adjusters that remain where you put them. I used the upgraded oil pump.... ummm the ignition is a Dura spark distributor triggering a Crane HI6 box. I like the Crane unit it puts out a heck of a spark and has a rev limiter, got mine used off ebay for about $75. Have the Offy intake, there is a story there..... when you deck the block and mill the heads you have to cut the intake, I ended up taking the whole engine to the machine shop before we got it cut to fit right... Holley 390 cfm with a very light secondary spring.

This engine destroyed the first stock clutch I put in it the disc just exploded the lining off it. I then went to Ram and had a metal button clutch with a sprung hub made for it and they also worked a pressure plate for me. Oh and before that the engine twisted the guts out of a stock rear hub. My fault I did not change the hub keys.

I have around 3 grand in parts and machine work, not counting cost of the engine the port work I did and the engine assembly I did my self. Farm those two out and I would figure another $1200 easy plus the cost of a core. The parts and machine work cost may be hard to reproduce because I get a pretty good deal from a couple buddies who own machine shops. So walking in off the street I would expect it to cost more than I have in my build.

My S3GT weighs 2107 pounds with no hard top and is 51% front 49% rear with about two gallons of fuel, oh and it runs on regular gas.

When my buddy who tweeked the carb for me drove it he was amazed said "This thing is like riding a motor cycle." and "Mercy that thing can eat!" this from a guy who drives an all alloy motored V8 dirt track car. He knows a nice mover.

We are looking at running some differnt lobe seperations for the cam on the desk top dyno to see if we can build more cylinder pressure and what effect it will have on the torque and HP curve. Hmmmm might make for a good write up....


I will not guess at what sort of power I am making right now but I like it!

So once the goofy gas is on it well......

Hi Jim

So,good to,see you on the forum

Chuck

 

[V6 JOSE]

Hi Cooked,

The 3.8 Ford V6 is a totally different animal from the Cologne V6 family. The 3.8 is a 90 degree V6 and came in the Taurus and Lincoln continental, among others. I owned a Lincoln Continental with that engine, and it blew a head gasket after only 40.000 miles. The problem is with the block. The water jacket hole is too close to the cylinder wall where the gasket has to seal, and the gasket blows right there. The heads are aluminum and the block is cast steel, so the expansion rate of the two metals causes movement and the gasket doesn´t have enough metal to hold it in place.

Jose

Very interesting! I've never owned a bad ford engine in my life or should I say Cologne V6 or ford 302 that was in my 86 Volvo 760. My 2007 Eddie bauer explorer has the cologne 4.0L v6 in it and I love it, even though its a tad bit gutless "you can only go as fast as the ******* in front of you" In regards to the tr7 weight the coupe is quite light its the drop top thats heavy. Its a great car, awesome seating position and theres a ton of them rotting away because of the sharty engines and transmissions. You can get them for dirt cheap, and personally I dont think there bad looking either. It beats building up another rustang or fire chicken!!!!

 

[MikeH]

Hi Jim

So,good to,see you on the forum

Chuck

Ditto. Good to see you around.