Bad Starter?

[Alpine 1789]

I haven't been able to drive my SV for a couple of weeks but was planning on going for a drive today. However, when I turned the key all I got was a click on the starter solenoid. I thought it might be the battery, but it registers 13 volts and I get the same response if I try to jump it. All wires appear to be in good condition and tight.

One unusual thing I noticed is that the ignition button on the solenoid (I don't know its proper name) didn't work. That is, while the solenoid clicks when I turn the ignition key, there is no response when I push the button. I know that worked last time I drove it, as that is how I started the car. Because of this, I decided to try replacing the solenoid since I had a spare and it is pretty easy to do. Same response, including the non functioning starter button, so I assume I can eliminate the solenoid.

That leaves the starter itself and I have a spare one of those too, but thought I'd double check with the forum before replacing it. In case it helps diagnose, I tried putting my voltmeter on the starter and turning the ignition key. I got only a slight voltage drop from the 13 volts. I also made sure I could turn the starter by hand using the square nut on the end and rolled the the car a bit in gear to make sure the engine hadn't frozen for some reason. The ammeter also appears to be working properly.

Any ideas or next steps? Thanks in advance.

 

[husky drvr]

Jim,

Just a wild guess, have you tried to lightly tap the starter. When the brushes are worn they don't always seat well on the commutator.

Might help but might not.

 

[Alpine 1789]

I hadn't, but assumed that manually turning it would have had the same effect. Still, I just gave it a shot. No luck.

 

[Jim E]

Two things check the ground wire that runs from the trans to the body and give the starter a heavy tap....

 

[Chuck Ingram]

Two things check the ground wire that runs from the trans to the body and give the starter a heavy tap....

That plus you make sure hot lead is clean and tight.
You can by pass the solenoid to see if it is the solenoid or the starter

 

[Alpine 1789]

I gave the starter a couple of good raps but no luck. Just to eliminate other problems, I tried popping the clutch and it started up and drove just fine. I've got to leave now, but will check the ground wire and connection to the starter later. I doubt it is the solenoid or those wires, since I just replaced that with a new one yesterday.

One thing that seems significant to me is the fact that the starter button on the solenoid (neither of them) doesn't do anything; I only engage the solenoid when I use the key. Does that suggest any diagnoses to anyone?

 

[Bill Blue]

Jim, don't know exactly what you are getting at with the comment about the solenoid engaging only when you turn the key. You should not hear a "click" when you push the solenoid button. When you do that, the electrical activation is bypassed and the solenoid becomes a manual switch. If you have doubts about the solenoid(s), simply short across the two heavy terminals. If nothing happens, the problem is not in the solenoid(s).

You say you started it by popping the clutch. By that do you mean you push started it? If so, as you have swapped out the solenoid and neither will operate the starter, I'd guess you have a bad "heavy wire" connection or shot starter. Do check all connections, but I'm guessing starter.

Bill

 

[Nickodell]

Jim: I also suggest bypassing the solenoid by using a short (6-8") of heavy wire (12awg minimum; 10 is better). Anticipate a big flash. If that doesn't tickle the starter up, you have three possible diagnoses:

1) Lead from solenoid to starter has loose or dirty connection at either or both ends. If you have 3' of the heavy wire, try bypassing the cable by having a helper hold one end on the solenoid hot terminal while you momentarily touch the other end to the starter hot cable terminal. If the starter kicks, the hot cable from the starter is the culprit;

2) Internal open circuit in starter. This happened to a forum member some months ago. Took the starter apart and found the main internal connection from the hot lead had broken or come off. I don't think it's a brish problem as this would have produced intermittent faults until a final no go;

3) Ground strap broken or disconnected. There is enough redundant engine-return-to-ground through accessories (e.g. throttle linkage and choke wire) to allow the ignition to function, but to carry the several hundred amps of the starter you need the grounding strap.

 

[Jeff Scoville]

3) Ground strap broken or disconnected. There is enough redundant engine-return-to-ground through accessories (e.g. throttle linkage and choke wire) to allow the ignition to function, but to carry the several hundred amps of the starter you need the grounding strap.

I agree that the lower gauge wires and mechanical grounds are enough to carry the load of the ignition, but they will ususally give you at least a slow spinning starter if the main ground were bad.
I'd bet a box of doughnuts that it's the starter itself.
At leasat it's not the end of the world Jim.

 

[Alpine 1789]

Well, I just tried 1) bypassing the solenoid, 2) jumping, then replacing the solenoid->starter wire and 3) using a set of heavy duty jumper cables to be sure I had a good ground from engine to body. None of that worked, so I'd say the starter was all that is left. Fortunately, I bought a rebuilt one on eBay a few months ago, because it went cheap and figured that I'd need it eventually. Given the uncertainty of eBay, is there any reason I can't use my jumper cables to make sure it spins before installing it?

Thanks guys. It might take me a week or so before I can get a chance to replace it, but I'll report back when I do.

 

[Wombat]

A test would be a good idea. One jumper lead to the body of the starter and flash the other to the live terminal (keep fingers out of the way of moving bits). Won't tell you if it will work properly under load, but if it spins, that is a good sign. Might also be worth undoing the cover at the brush end to see if the brushes and comutator look in good condition. Replacing brushes and machining the comutator should be part of the recon process.

 

[Alpine 1789]

Thanks Robert.

 

[Nickodell]

Jim, if you bench test it be sure to secure it in a vice! Starters are powerful series-wound motors and if you apply power to an unsecured one in a no-load state they can spin across the bench and damage or hurt someone/thing.

 

[Alpine 1789]

Thanks, Nick. I will do that. Out of curiosity, is there any reason not to use my battery charger to do the test? It has 2, 10 and 50 amp settings and would be easier than pulling out the battery to do it.

 

[Wombat]

Jim

Under load, starters draw hundreds of amps (I don't have the specs for the Alpine one handy). With no load, it won't be as much, but still might be too much for your battery charger to handle.

 

[Jeff Scoville]

Jim, standing on the stater with a heavy foot will be enough to hold it steady, wherby you can do it in your drivway with the cables hooked up to the battery of any vehicle.