Alpine IV in Spain - VIN and engine numbers

[pruyter]

That is strange indeed, because the cable operated bonnet release system was introduced with chassisnumber B395004386 which was in march 1966! The bumper mounted number plate lights were introduced with B395017327 which is at the end of the production of this cars.
I don't know what could cause this discrepantion and I don't know what was possible in Spain at the time, but I know for example that here in the Netherlands some people changed cars with identity papers wich was not hard to do with the Rootes system with chassisnumbers on removable plates.
I have to think about it a little more...
In the meantime, with the informaton we have gathered now, I have no doubt that your Alpine is a 1966 series 5 or even a later one. In my opinion the existing SAL-number belongs to this car.
Has the car it original colour? If so than the colour under the indentification plates must correspond with this colour. The SAL-number plate is pop rivited, does it look exacly the same as with the chassisnumber plate? I mean the way the pop rivets look...

Regards,

Peter

 

[pruyter]

I have studied your photo's and I can see that the pop rivets differ which means that the two plates are installed on different occasions and I bet the chassisnumber plate is installed in a later phase then the SAL number

 

[pruyter]

I have continued my research and I have found the following:
chassisnumbers which starts with:

B945 concern CKD series 4 (early);
B946 concern CKD series 4a;
B3959 concern CKD series 5.

Alpines assembled by Touring in Milan for Rootes Italia usually bear the code R 39 in addition to the chassis number.

Further tell tales wether it concerns a series 4 or 5 are;

the series 5 have foot well vents (look for the control knobs marked V on either side of the dashbord and no SUNBEAM letters on the panel in front of the bonnet.

I noticed on one of the photo's you showed us that you have an overdrive, at least I have seen the column switch. If the indicator stalk is the left one than it concerns a series 5. The series 4 had the awkward position of the indicator stalk at the right and the overdrive stalk at the left (regarding LHD cars of course).

The SAL number belongs to a series 5 Alpine.

Anyhow series 5 Alpines were introduced in august 1965, so the identification papers from the 14th of June 1965 can't be the papers of this car! I am sorry to be the bearer of this news Guillermo, but it is what it is.

 

[RootesRooter]

When was the switchover to the strap-style spare tire hold-down? This one still has the wheel. My vague memory is it happened in early '66.

It looks like the SAL tag is more likely to be accurate. In production, the last digits on the VIN and the SAL tag started out close together but steadily deviated thru the end of the SV. #4409 would put production in mid-March '66.

The SAL tag and its screws, and the VIN tag and its rivets, look correct and properly aged, with just the right amount of crud built up in the grooves and around the edges. Someone else would have to verify this is the correct font used on the stamped VIN letters/numbers on CKD cars.

But the VIN stamping on the body further muddies the waters.

 

[Hodee]

This has been a fun series of posts to read and very informative. I noticed that the car seems to be in excellent condition and came equipped with ALL gauges a clock and a cigarette lighter and overdrive as well? Very nice. Hope you get the entire identification sorted out, it is a nice car.

 

[RootesRooter]

self adjusting rear brakes were only used on early series 5 cars. sunbeam switched them back to manual adjusted brakes.

According to SS catalog, the switch back to manual adjusting brakes started with 17,553, with a dozen odd exceptions afterward that still used self-adjusters.

 

[volvoguys]

"This si an interesting option, but for sure discarded. The Alpine is registered in Spain in 1965. Thus, impossible to be assembled after registration."

Umm, gonna disagree. I've parted may of these cars and have had two bodies, both Series V, that had title dates before they were built. One was titled 1965 with an actual build date of 1966 and the other was a '67 titled 1966. Most manufacturers had VINs that changed with the model year but not Rootes. The Series V Alpine had a B395 prefix for all four years, 1965-1968.

This car is almost certainly a V and, short some impractical and difficult work by an amazing body man, can be proven. There are three characteristics that (sans above work) that are unique to the Series V and can't be modified without detection:

1. Fabric soft top cover: The supporting panels are SV unique and to convert from metal covers will almost certainly leave tooling and poor welds that would be spotted.

2. Missing SUNBEAM lettering above the intake aperture. The holes could be filled in but the filler evidence could be seen/felt from behind the panel(s). Note: Many SV inner panels still had the holes punched for lettering as Rootes used up excess inventory. The outer skins were new panels without the holes.

3. Fresh air vents. Adding these without detection would require the complete dismantling of the bulkhead. You could conceal the signs where the intake throats extend into the body below the scuttle vents outside the car. Under the dash? Forget it!

Disclaimer to those who take exception to my claims that the mods could not go undetected: I realize that anything can be done to anything with enough time, money and effort. I go on probability and realism and really don't want to engage in a debate so I'll respond, in advance - You are right and I am wrong.

You could spend a lot of time researching this and come to some good conclusions. But, honestly, at the end of the day the car's identity will still be a best guess.

Regards, Mark ..... volvoguys

 

[Tom H]

Mark, Can you explain how the cars you describe were titled earlier than manufactured? Were they titled after they were manufactured but the titles were "post dated"? Or were they titled somehow even though they did not exist yet?

Tom

 

[Tom H]

It's clear that this is a beautiful SV, with a motor from a Sceptre Mk II. Most likely it is a late SV as seen by the late style license plate lights. My guess is the owner originally had a SIV CKD with these numbers, titled in 65, but likely had the car in a total accident, then found this SV, maybe not in Spain, as a replacement and decided it was easier to swap plates than go thru a new registration. I'm guessing he even kept the SAL plate on the new body, but only moved the VIN plate and stamped the old VIN in the same location on the new body as before.

Regardless, Guilermo has a very nice car. Congrats.

Tom

 

[volvoguys]

Mark, Can you explain how the cars you describe were titled earlier than manufactured? Were they titled after they were manufactured but the titles were "post dated"? Or were they titled somehow even though they did not exist yet?

Tom

How? Dunno. But it was very common for cars to sit around for months after production until they were sent overseas. My theory was that cars were sent in 'lots', meaning you could have cars that have varied production dates in the bunch. So, the dealer looks at the date on one of the cars and assumes they're all '65's and sold them all as such.

I've found quite a few variances in car titles over the years. I've seen examples where the SAL/JAL numbers were used as a VIN up to where all numbers on the tag used (B395008054LRX86), including the color, etc. I've seen Chrysler, Rootes and Sunbeam listed as the manufacturer.

Mark ..... volvoguys

 

[Tom H]

Mark, your explanation fits cases where the car was titled well AFTER mfg. Very common. But earlier you noted cases where the care was titled EARLIER than mfr. I still don't see how that is possible.

Tom

 

[Alpine 1789]

I've found quite a few variances in car titles over the years.

My SV had a 1965 title when I bought it in 1978. When I titled it, I told the clerk at the DMV that it couldn't be a '65 and he changed it to 1966. It has been that way ever since. I am sure that couldn't happen today, but I think the way cars were titled back in the day was pretty arbitrary.

 

[volvoguys]

Mark, your explanation fits cases where the car was titled well AFTER mfg. Very common. But earlier you noted cases where the care was titled EARLIER than mfr. I still don't see how that is possible.

Tom

Consider this: It's April 1966 and a dealer just accepted delivery of 16 new Alpines from Rootes. Amongst the cars is B395001096 with a build date of November 15 1965 and B395003031 with a build date of February 7 1966. Manager sees the date of the early car and orders titles from the state DMV assuming they are all the same year. Remember, in the USA model years don't follow the Jan 1 - Dec 31 calendar year.

I get guys contacting me all the time for parts telling me what year the car is. My reply asks for the Series and VIN, or at least the VIN prefix. A 1965 Alpine could be a Series IV or a Series V. Even then, a part may vary based on the VIN (production date), such as the brake servo which started a 5" but changed to 7" later in production.

Later, Mark ..... v

 

[Tom H]

Mark, in your scenario, I assume the paper work and title would be dated (date of issuance) as April 1966 and the MODEL YEAR of the car might be 1965 or 1966. This is what Guilermo said "The Alpine is registered in Spain in 1965" I (and apparently Guilermo and most of us) take that to mean this is the date the registration paper was completed. As I said this is quite common. I have never seen or heard of a title where the "title date" is some date earlier than the actual date the paperwork is being done. The model year stated on the title is often useless.

I still think my explanation- originally an SIV, but replaced with an SV by swapping VIN plates- is the most logical explanation. Swapping VIN plates is even easier than the motor swap that was also done on this car!

Tom

 

[65beam]

Vin

if I were the owner of this car I would probably be totally confused or asking why I even asked. just a bunch of assumptions.

 

[pruyter]

I really don't understand your reaction 65 beam! It is quite understandable that one wants to know what the history is from the car that is bought.
And what assumptions are you talking about? Guillermo thought he had bought a series 4 Alpine and with no doubt (no assumptions!) it is a series 5 with the 1724 cc engine from a Humber Sceptre MK 2.
So now he knows what he has and that is important in the case that he wants to order parts for this car! The only thing that is strange that are the title papers. The explination from Mark is may be possible in the USA, but Guillermo lives in Spain(Europe). I can tell you that Marks explination is completely impossible in for example my country, the Netherlands (Europe). I don't know what is and was possible in Spain.
So that leaves us with the explination from Tom and I agree with him that this is most likely the case.
The papers seem to belong to a CKD series 4 which is assembled in Italy (because of the prefix R 39 which is nearly the same as RI 39). This is of course an assumption, I agree on that one with you 65 beam, but it is at least something.
In the end Guillermo seems to have bought a very nice Alpine which on top of that has overdrive and the extra two clocks (ampere and time). Not bad at all!

Regards,

Peter

 

[65beam]

Vin

and now he has a car that has a world wide question mark hanging over it that may open up a real can of worms in the future. it's not the first sunbeam in the world that may have been something else in a previous life. look at how his question has moved into a discussion that really could have been answered with a simple "YES" or "NO" with an explanation added. that just doesn't seem to ever happen.

 

[pruyter]

A world wide question? You must be kidding! Sunbeams are nice cars but not that important, we are not talking Ferrari's!
Guillermo's question has not moved into a discussion (exept your comments of course), his question has moved a lot of people in a help modus while one forum member even wrote that this thread was quite informative to him or her.
So it seems that you are the only one that has a problem with it and the question is "WHY?". Why can't you just accept that people want to know things and that other people like to help?
One advice to you: accept the fact that no one knows everything, even not you, and that we all together on this forum know a lot which we can bring to the use of everyone.

Regards,

Peter

 

[65beam]

Vin

A world wide question? You must be kidding! Sunbeams are nice cars but not that important, we are not talking Ferrari's!
Guillermo's question has not moved into a discussion (exept your comments of course), his question has moved a lot of people in a help modus while one forum member even wrote that this thread was quite informative to him or her.
So it seems that you are the only one that has a problem with it and the question is "WHY?". Why can't you just accept that people want to know things and that other people like to help?
One advice to you: accept the fact that no one knows everything, even not you, and that we all together on this forum know a lot which we can bring to the use of everyone.

Regards,

Peter

the last time I checked this forum is open to anyone world wide so his question is out there in never land. he asked a question and has gotten many answers that may or may not be right. many times over the years a few have done nothing but cause problems down the road by giving the wrong advise or answer. that problem may not be today or the next day but long term. I don't claim to know everything because I don't have to know everything.

 

[decarcer]

Morning everyone!!!

Waoooo!!!! two days out of the forum and I realised my question is trending topic!!!

I am really glad having all you digging in the origins of my car. Indeed, I learnt from this thread much more that reading the books I have bought regarding Sunbeam Alpines.!!!!

So, let me summarize what we already have discovered.

1.- My Alpine is indeed a Series V. There are no "metal doors" for the top stowage. Corners of trunk and boot lid are "square". Tachometer goes up to 7000 rpm. SAL number correlates to V series. Thank you to all of you that shed light ion this and teach what to check.

2.- There are many items that although fit in a SV, could be added afterwords by previous owners. Here in Spain, classic car owners are, sometimes, not as accurate as they should. That means they add items to the car that do not necessarily correspond to the model. I am pretty sure that some of these items (such as plate lamps, or rear light, or some extra gauges, etc..) were probably added. I do not have any confirmed data for this, but believe me, this is a common practice here.

3.- The VIN number was at any time changed. This is quite obvious!!!. When and were is not known. Whether the final digits correspond to the original VIN number was only an assumption, but we really don't know, and any info regarding this is mere speculation.

4.- Keep in mind this is a car registered in Spain in 1965. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT!!!. Please, let me put you in the context of Spain during the 60's, for those of you that are not aware of those "particular" days. Spain had a military government, and was practically isolated for the rest of the world. There were no car importers. Any foreign car had to be specially requested, and was very difficult to import, and very expensive for the average population. Thus, cars like Sunbeam Alpines, or MGBs, or Healys, were very rare. These kind of cars were either bought outside Spain, and brought by the owners; or brought to Spain during Cars exhibitions and "ferias". In the second case, if any, dealers imported one unit, and normally under particular request. In both cases, time and bureaucracy was an issue, and the car might spent months before being registered. Thus, it is IMPOSSIBLE to have a registration plate earlier than the car manufacturing.

5.- I Spain, plate numbers are assigned to a car, and NEVER reassigned again. That means that the licence plate dies with the car. This is mandatory since ever. Thus, the possibility that the car received a registration from another car is impossible.

Having said that, my guess right now is the following:

1.- The car was probably bought outside Spain and then brought here. Being a car with plates for the VIN number, Spanish authorities renumbered following the law. Although the new number might indicate is a SIV Alpine, this is pure speculation. The fact that the number might fit a SIV CKD makes sense if the car was brought from south america or mexico. On the other hand, what pruyter said about the Italian assembled Alpines is rather interesting and I would like to explore this line.

2.- If the car is a SV Alpine, and the registration was done in June, 14th of 1965, then we have here a conundrum. SV started to be assembled in August 1965.

3.- I realised that the original technical data annotated in the official papers says that the engine is a 1592cc. The car has now a 1725cc engine, and I know the previous owner had changed it. The number of this 1592cc engine correspond to a SIV Alpine, but do not fit the current VIN number.

In summary, as most of you said, the car looks quite nice and I am very happy with it. Still finishing paperwork and trying to fix a couple of things to have it running.

Once again, thank you so much for your nice help.

Cheers

Guillermo