Alpine IV in Spain - VIN and engine numbers

[decarcer]

Hi there

I recently bought an Alpine IV here in Spain.

Although the car still is not in driving conditions, I would like to ask for some info regarding the engine and the VIN number.

The engine is a 1725cc that have the following number: B132 007898
I would like to know from which Rootes car corresponds this engine number.

Also, the VIN number is a bit confusing to me. Is R139 9450030. As far as I've been able to dig, this does not correspond to an Alpine registration number. Regarding this number, there is the possibility that the car has been renumbered. This is a common practice here in Spain for cars that the VIN number is in a plaque. Please, see attached pictures. Spanish law says that any VIN number has to be stamped on the body shell in order to avoid misconduct with the car identification. Therefore, a common renumbering is to start with the 'R' (from Renumbered), and then they can use the original number, if there is any, or generate a completely new one. Again, it seems that the 9450030 corresponds really to a SIV Alpine. But there were not 50 thousand car built. And here I am lost!!!! Do you know to what this number might correspond? I've read about the CKD units, and this number fits to the SIV Alpine CKD. But there is very little info about the CKDs. Do you know where can I find more info about the CKDs?
Unfortunately, I cannot retrieve more information from the Spanish Traffic Office, since very little data is stored from old and vintage cars.
Any info or help from you would be very helpful.

Thank you in advance, and sorry for muy rusty english!

 

[alpine_64]

Yes its renumbered, interesting that they have also redone the rootes vin plate. No alpines after series ii were stamped on the body.

 

[Greggers]

Making a few assumptions based on the registry (under SAOCA Info above), the SAL number in your image would correspond to an Alpine Series V of approximately B395005000, built around April of 1966. Perhaps the "5003" in your renumbered VIN refers to B395005003.

All the Series IVs in that registry range from SAL 350000 to roughly SAL 500000. Your number, SAL 604409, falls into the Series V range.


Note that these are just guesses, and making assumptions based on the VIN number and SAL number isn't an exact science.

 

[Tom H]

Guilermo, First of all, your English is near perfect! What little flaws there are seem about typical for internet correspondence, even for native English speakers.

First thing is to figure if your car is a Series IV. Does it have metal "doors" or a soft cover over the soft top when stored? Metal doors mean SIV, Soft cover means SV.

In an earlier post you said you also got an "original" block with the car. What is the number on that block? If that is THE original block it could tell you the original VIN.

According to this website your engine is from a 1965 or later Humber Sceptre Mk II:
http://www.team.net/www/rootes/chassis.html

Good luck

Tom

 

[RootesRooter]

Except for missing the "B," your VIN, 9450030, falls right in line with Series IV CKDs, one of 55 made, per Tom's link. Perhaps the "R139" is a regional or country-mandated code.

 

[decarcer]

Making a few assumptions based on the registry (under SAOCA Info above), the SAL number in your image would correspond to an Alpine Series V of approximately B395005000, built around April of 1966. Perhaps the "5003" in your renumbered VIN refers to B395005003.

All the Series IVs in that registry range from SAL 350000 to roughly SAL 500000. Your number, SAL 604409, falls into the Series V range.


Note that these are just guesses, and making assumptions based on the VIN number and SAL number isn't an exact science.

This si an interesting option, but for sure discarded. The Alpine is registered in Spain in 1965. Thus, impossible to be assembled after registration. Here in Spain, was quite normal, in those days, that imported cars were registered long time after being imported. Thus a licence plate from 1965 is quite common in a 1964 assembled car, or even earlier. Those days here in Spain were very atypical, and imported car were very rare and difficult to obtain.

Another possibility is that the SAL number plate has been riveted from another model. Cosmetic reasons I suppose.

Thank you for the info. Very interesting!

 

[decarcer]

Guilermo, First of all, your English is near perfect! What little flaws there are seem about typical for internet correspondence, even for native English speakers.

First thing is to figure if your car is a Series IV. Does it have metal "doors" or a soft cover over the soft top when stored? Metal doors mean SIV, Soft cover means SV.

In an earlier post you said you also got an "original" block with the car. What is the number on that block? If that is THE original block it could tell you the original VIN.

According to this website your engine is from a 1965 or later Humber Sceptre Mk II:
http://www.team.net/www/rootes/chassis.html

Good luck

Tom

Hi Tom

Thanks for your kind words!

I will check the soft covers of the doors. Right now I am not very sure what you mean with the soft covers, and/or metal "doors". I am almost sure is a SIV, but this tiny details escape from my eye.

The "original" engine, is not as original as I thought. It definitively belongs to a SIV Alpine. But the number is different to the VIN number stamped in the car.

Any how, I will double check this week end. The car is not at home, but in a garage I share with other folks, full of classic cars!
I'll come back with the spare engine number in a couple of days, and hope with detailed pictures of any corner of my Alpine.

Best regards.

 

[decarcer]

Except for missing the "B," your VIN, 9450030, falls right in line with Series IV CKDs, one of 55 made, per Tom's link. Perhaps the "R139" is a regional or country-mandated code.

Hi there RootesRooter.

This is exactly my guess. But there is so little info about CKDs, that I would like to know more about. Where they were assembled? are they really such rare units?
I will try to retrieve info from the Spanish Traffic Office, but knowing them, I barely won't get any decent or useful information, moreover from a 1965 registered car!!!!!

Thanks.

 

[decarcer]

Yes its renumbered, interesting that they have also redone the rootes vin plate. No alpines after series ii were stamped on the body.

Hi Mike.
This indeed puzzles me. But if the SAL number plate does not correspond to the year and car model, as stated here by Greggers, my guess is that all the plates were riveted afterwords for cosmetic purposes. This the VIN plate is sort of a "fake" plate with the new number.

The stamped number you see in the picture, locate at the right fender in the engine bay, is clearly made here in Spain. I've seen many times this kind of stamped numbers in classic british cars when they arrive to Spain.

Cheers.

 

[pruyter]

Hi Guillermo,

To make things even more complicated the following:
CKD cars series 4 had a chassisnumber which starts wit B 946, while for series 5 cars the chassisnumber started with B 3959 ( source: parts list Sunbeam Alpine publication 6600992).

Every chassisnumber has at the end of this number a 3 letter combination like for example LRO which means Lefthanded export, Roadster and Ordinary (Standard).
However every CKD car had a chassisnumber with a 3 letter combination at the end which starts with the following letter;

E: CKD, Export, Home specification;
W:CKD, RHD, Export;
X: CKD, LHD, Export

So your chassisnumer, which starts with 945, doesn't correspond with the above. The commencing B is missing and the third digit should be a 6 if it appears to be a series 4.
I am interested to know what the last 3 letters are regarding your chassisnumber.
And yes Tom is right about the B 132007898, this is an engine from a Humber Sceptre Mk 2 which means it is a 1724 cc engine.

Oh, regarding your question about "metal doors en soft cover" it regards the stowage of the soft top. Series 4 Alpines had a stowage space which is covered by hinged metal covers while the series 5 cars have not this metal covers but a soft artificial leather cover with zips.

Regards,
Peter

 

[decarcer]

Hi Guillermo,

To make things even more complicated the following:
CKD cars series 4 had a chassisnumber which starts wit B 946, while for series 5 cars the chassisnumber started with B 3959 ( source: parts list Sunbeam Alpine publication 6600992).

Every chassisnumber has at the end of this number a 3 letter combination like for example LRO which means Lefthanded export, Roadster and Ordinary (Standard).
However every CKD car had a chassisnumber with a 3 letter combination at the end which starts with the following letter;

E: CKD, Export, Home specification;
W:CKD, RHD, Export;
X: CKD, LHD, Export

So your chassis number, which starts with 945, doesn't correspond with the above. The commencing B is missing and the third digit should be a 6 if it appears to be a series 4.
I am interested to know what the last 3 letters are regarding your chassisnumber.
And yes Tom is right about the B 132007898, this is an engine from a Humber Sceptre Mk 2 which means it is a 1724 cc engine.

Oh, regarding your question about "metal doors en soft cover" it regards the stowage of the soft top. Series 4 Alpines had a stowage space which is covered by hinged metal covers while the series 5 cars have not this metal covers but a soft artificial leather cover with zips.

Regards,
Peter

Hi there Peter

Unfortunately, there are no three last letters in the VIN number code of my car. I also missed them, but since it seems to be renumbered, I understand that those letters might be removed at a given time.

Regarding the "metal doors" now I understand what you mean. In my Alpine there are no metal doors as far as I inspected, but a soft cover for the stowed top. Whether this is factory original, or changed during car life is a mystery to me.

Definitively, I have to spend some time on the car making detailed pictures to post here. I hope this week end my wife and kids allow me to take a couple of hours to do this...

thanks for your input.

 

[pruyter]

Hi Guillermo,

When you are inspecting your Alpine it is smart to check the corners of doors, bonnet and trunk lid. If for instance all the corners are square then in combination with the stowage system for the soft top one can assume your Alpine is a series 5. Early series 4 had all of them round corners. In between there are the so called cross overs with a mix of round and square corners.

Regards,

Peter

 

[decarcer]

Hi Guillermo,

When you are inspecting your Alpine it is smart to check the corners of doors, bonnet and trunk lid. If for instance all the corners are square then in combination with the stowage system for the soft top one can assume your Alpine is a series 5. Early series 4 had all of them round corners. In between there are the so called cross overs with a mix of round and square corners.


Regards,

Peter

excellent tip!!! I'll check it. Any how, I attached some pictures sent by the seller time ago. Can you see square or round corners?

I come from the Austin/Morris Mini car world. (I have two classic minis).
In the UK build minis there are many places to look for sings that can give a hint on when was built and which model is the car. For instance, the wiper motor has a serial number that allow you to know which car model you have. Similarly happens to other parts of the car.
I am sure that with the Alpines has to be the same. British are prone to this kind of things!!!

 

[Mike O'D]

Series V!

Mike

 

[pruyter]

The corners of the door and bootlid are square, so together with the stowage system of the soft top it indicates to be a series 5.
If you check the rear wheel brake cylinders and you find them to be self adjusting it indicates a series 5 too. The series 4 have rear brake cylinders which are manual adjustable. You don't need to remove the brake drums, just look for a square kind of nut at the top of the back plate, if you can't find one it means the cylinders are self adjusting.
Another checkpoint is the tachometer. If the tachometer reads op to 7000 revolutions it means it is a series 5 while if it reads up to 6000 revolutions it means it is a series 4. At the same time you can check the text which is written at the dial of the tachometer: if it reads that it has positive earth then you know that it concerns a series 4. All series 5 are negative earth. There are more tell tales like the ventilation system which was better on series 5 then the series 4. But I think that you have enough now to identify your vehicle!

 

[65beam]

alpine

self adjusting rear brakes were only used on early series 5 cars. sunbeam switched them back to manual adjusted brakes.

 

[pruyter]

you are right about that 65 beam! I was up to now convinced that only the very late series 5 switched back to the manual adjusting. I can check this later on when I have the time to find out from which chassisnumber Rootes switched back to the manual adjusting.

Guillermo,

It helps if you check the bonnet release system. If it is a cable release system it shows that it is 1966 series 5 Alpine.
The square boot corner indicates that your Alpine is at least from whether december 1965 or the beginning of 1966.

 

[decarcer]

The corners of the door and bootlid are square, so together with the stowage system of the soft top it indicates to be a series 5.
If you check the rear wheel brake cylinders and you find them to be self adjusting it indicates a series 5 too. The series 4 have rear brake cylinders which are manual adjustable. You don't need to remove the brake drums, just look for a square kind of nut at the top of the back plate, if you can't find one it means the cylinders are self adjusting.
Another checkpoint is the tachometer. If the tachometer reads op to 7000 revolutions it means it is a series 5 while if it reads up to 6000 revolutions it means it is a series 4. At the same time you can check the text which is written at the dial of the tachometer: if it reads that it has positive earth then you know that it concerns a series 4. All series 5 are negative earth. There are more tell tales like the ventilation system which was better on series 5 then the series 4. But I think that you have enough now to identify your vehicle!

Superb information pruyter!

the car is indeed negative earthed. But many british cars here in Spain are converted to negative earth to avoid confusions when serviced. Cars here in Spain are always negative earthed, and a positive earth car is so rare that owners tend to change this to make life easier. I thought my car was changed at a given time.

The tachometer seem to read far from 6000 (picture attached), but I will check in brief. Unless it's been changed during car's life, seems to be a SV

Thus, a series V!!!!! I was so convinced about a SIV that is a surprise to me. Then, the VIN number is more confusing to me right now!!!

This is a lot of fun!!!

 

[decarcer]

you are right about that 65 beam! I was up to now convinced that only the very late series 5 switched back to the manual adjusting. I can check this later on when I have the time to find out from which chassisnumber Rootes switched back to the manual adjusting.

Guillermo,

It helps if you check the bonnet release system. If it is a cable release system it shows that it is 1966 series 5 Alpine.
The square boot corner indicates that your Alpine is at least from whether december 1965 or the beginning of 1966.

Pruyter

It is indeed a cable operated bonnet release system. What does not fit to your estimation of dates, is that de licence plate is from June the 14th - 1965.

If the car was sold as new in Spain, any date after mid 1965 cannot be possible. And knowing Spain in those days, any new overseas imported car probably spent more than 6 months before registering. This is only speculation, but very possible!!!!

 

[decarcer]

Series V!

Mike

Thanks Mike.
It seems so!!!