V6 installation

[Yenko]

Hello Barry,

The ignition timing is one of my concerns...this motor likes to be at 35° at idle and do not 'ping'...may be the distributor or timing light is F***K...??? the distributor is a 1975 Ford unit , brand new in Ford's box, so I don't thing that it's this piece of the puzzle that goes wrong! but the motor goes well at this timing! I use to have 427 Big Block Chevy that were happy at 40° at idle with a lock distributor, radical cam and other things...i.e.: even at 7000 rpm it was at 40°...but I dont think this is the way the 2.8L V6 Ford should be timed...

 

[MikeH]

Are you disconnecting the vacuum line when checking the timing?

 

[Barry]

Yenko,

Something does not add up. A street engine on pump gas should not need that much advance at idle.

I would start over and:

1. Make sure the timing mark and timing pointer are actually at TDC on #1 cylinder.

2. Make sure the cam is timed correctly.

3. Set the initial timing at about 12 degrees and then check to see how much mechanical advance the distributor provides (probably about 22-26 degrees at about 3000-3500 RPM).

4. Adjust the initial timing to find what the engine likes best at idle.

5. Adjust the mechanical advance to achieve about 34-38 degrees TOTAL advance with the mechanical advance all in at WOT. The correct way to determine total advance at WOT is on a dyno, but....

6. Adjust the vacuum advance to eliminate "knock" at medium throttle while climbing a moderate hill.

 

[RootesRacer]

Hello Barry,

The ignition timing is one of my concerns...this motor likes to be at 35° at idle and do not 'ping'...may be the distributor or timing light is F***K...??? the distributor is a 1975 Ford unit , brand new in Ford's box, so I don't thing that it's this piece of the puzzle that goes wrong! but the motor goes well at this timing! I use to have 427 Big Block Chevy that were happy at 40° at idle with a lock distributor, radical cam and other things...i.e.: even at 7000 rpm it was at 40°...but I dont think this is the way the 2.8L V6 Ford should be timed...

You using a an adjustable timing light by chance?

If so, set the delay to zero degrees and check your timing that way.

These adjustable lights mess a lot of people up an have blown lots of motors.

NO engine will be truly happy with a locked out distributor.
Only engines with very poor low end volumetric efficiency will tolerate the same timing on the low side as what make peak power on the top end, so dont lie to yourself like the old school builders did. This trick only works in a racecar, not one driven on the street.

 

[Yenko]

Yes...I am using an ajustable timing light but have set it up to 'zero' and I have about 35° of timing...
Could it be the timing gears...? even if I am sure that I have install them at the zero timing marks... the two '°' on the gears...
The only thing that I remember is when I first started it up, I had to change the place of the #1 spark wire at the distributor by one step...but we all know that it doesn't change anything where is the #1 plug...as long as you change all the wire plugs in the same direction...dope...
Beside that the motor runs superbly...no suspicious noises...very nice idle at 800rpm...temp. is 85°C steady..etc...
BTW I am using a CRANE HI-6...nice idea JimE!!
I will try an other timing light...

 

[RootesRacer]

Yes...I am using an ajustable timing light but have set it up to 'zero' and I have about 35° of timing...
Could it be the timing gears...? even if I am sure that I have install them at the zero timing marks... the two '°' on the gears...
The only thing that I remember is when I first started it up, I had to change the place of the #1 spark wire at the distributor by one step...but we all know that it doesn't change anything where is the #1 plug...as long as you change all the wire plugs in the same direction...dope...
Beside that the motor runs superbly...no suspicious noises...very nice idle at 800rpm...temp. is 85°C steady..etc...
BTW I am using a CRANE HI-6...nice idea JimE!!
I will try an other timing light...

Your cam timing and ignition timing have nothing to do with one another.

Considering it is running pretty well with the timing you have, you might consider degreeing the crank damper to see if the elastomer ring has failed and the timing marks inaccurate.

Some engines will run with 30 degrees even at idle, but they are hopelessly over advanced.

 

[MikeH]

you might consider degreeing the crank damper to see if the elastomer ring has failed and the timing marks inaccurate.

I haven't looked closely at the balancer on my crank, but if its like other early fords I've had experience with, it is solid, there is no rubber to shift.

From the Pruett book I got this:

 

[RootesRacer]

I haven't looked closely at the balancer on my crank, but if its like other early fords I've had experience with, it is solid, there is no rubber to shift.

From the Pruett book I got this:

The 2.8 on my 77 capri definitely had true damper for what its worth.

 

[socorob]

I just went through the same thing last weekend. I rewired my car and installed a Mallory dist, coil, ignition. It kept showing my timing around 40 degrees. I had to move all my wires over one which wasn't as bad as the 2 it was off when I got it. I have it correct now. The distributor had to go in and out about 5 or 6 times. It was really hard for some reason to get them all to stay in line when putting it in. At least it's only 1 bolt to remove. I would be willing to say something moved a little when you were putting it in. I would start the troubleshooting by getting your distributor right first. The Mallory had a mark on the body and the part that spins that you have to make sure is exact when it's down while pointing where 1 should be. The timing light we had broke so we just set the engine at 12 degress and got the distributor right and it fired right up and runs smooth. I'll have to double check it later when I borrow my friends light.

 

[Yenko]

Thanks guys,

My damper is one from a 1974 Mustang with the elastomeric ring and when I put my finger in the #1 plug hole,on the compression , it show's the '0' exactly, so no trouble in this area...But what SOCOROB has done , is a good indication of what I did wrong... so I'm gonna work in that direction...
witch is remove the distributor and do it all over again...like SOCOROB said =» it's only a bolt...

BTW I've put some photos off the conversion so far, on my webshots site...

here is the site:http://community.webshots.com/user/yenko_copo

Not all the photos, but that should help new people to the conversion...

 

[RootesRacer]

Yenko, you cant determine the accuracy on the timing wheel in the way you describe, only that your cam and distributor phasing is correct or at least close.

To do this, you need a dial indicator off the #1 piston, or something that screws into the spark plug and "locks" the motor (by hitting the #1 piston) at each side of TDC.
The mid point of the angle (or piston @X distance) is your zero degree point.

 

[bulldurham]

v-6 timing

I have been trying to get the timing right on the v6 today. After reading previous comments on this thread this will seem simple to the experienced.
It seems obvious now that I did not assemble the engine correctly even though the cam and crank gear marks we aligned.
When the #1 piston is at /near tdc, valves closed, and the rotor is on #1 plug wire, the damper mark is at approx. 3 o'clock position.
So, what is the next best solution to this w/o doing the best thing??

 

[RootesRacer]

if the crank and cam were not timed (what it sounds like) then you have no choice but to pull the timing cover.

Could also be that the elastomeric ring in the damper failed and the timing marks mean nothing.

To test this you would need a degree wheel to inspect the valve timing, and an accurate method to determine real piston TDC. This wont be easy without pulling the heads and using drop gauge.

 

[bulldurham]

I feel certain that I did get the timing marks aligned as I did not want to have this issue come up. I will have to look back but I think I took a picture of it.
This engine ran and idled pretty well at one point but began having problems at the muffler shop and would not start at all when I had it brought to my garage.
Don't know if those guys high rev'ed it and maybe slipped the elastomer ring.
Work to do, so thanks for your response and I will ck.out the damper.
By the way, I can make this engine run but it is at approx.3k rpm and it cuts off when I retard the dist.

 

[bulldurham]

Thanks RootesRacer, think I solved the problem. As you probably know the 2.8 damper has 2 marks on it. One is large and on the engine side of the damper. The real mark is on the radiator side and on mine was almost obscured w/ paint. Makes life a lot easier using the correct mark.

 

[V6 JOSE]

Whew!!

For a moment there, I thought you weren't going to be able to bring it to the Invasion so I could get a ride in it. Sure glad to hear that is was something simple.

Jose

Thanks RootesRacer, think I solved the problem. As you probably know the 2.8 damper has 2 marks on it. One is large and on the engine side of the damper. The real mark is on the radiator side and on mine was almost obscured w/ paint. Makes life a lot easier using the correct mark.

 

[AlpineII]

Waiting for a pair of heads to arrive from Blue Coyote and watching these threads carefully as I get ready to complete my V6 install. So many things to keep in mind as I line up all the ducks.

 

[weaselkeeper]

Right or Wrong, to get a consistent starting point, I had the engine bolted to the trans and the trans bolted in its mount, the mount secured to the car. Once the trans was secure, I loosed it enough to slide the entire assembly front to back until I got the required 0.060 clearance for the steering link through its entire left/right travel. I tried to keep the engine centered from side to side as close as possible. Once I had the .060, I centered the engine from side to side and located the engine mount points on the x-member and marked the holes for the mount nut in the x-member. Out came the engine to drill the mount holes in the x-member to accept the nuts on the washer. Once that was done, I bolted the entire mount assy to the engine and lowered it until the mount nuts fell into the x-member holes I had just drilled. Measure, measure and measure again until happy, because the engine is in a slightly different aspect with the mount nuts inside the x-member instead of sitting on top when it was located. Once I thought it was in the right spot, I installed the headers, and rechecked the .060 steering arm clearance for the 13th time or more. With a another minor adjustment, TACKED the washer in place and removed the engine. I welded the mount up, which did require a section of exhaust pipe on the back side of the x-member for good support. I may not have mentioned that the engine went in/out 4 or more times, the headers three times, and a big hunk of the day to get to this point, but patience pays. I may be slow, but that's the only way I can keep up.

 

[Yenko]

Looks like you're in the wright way...sounds OK for me...It remind me a busy month of december 2009...when I was exactly where you are ==» mesure,mesure and re-mesure
Go see my webshots...soon I'll put some of the x-member photos of the conversion to help guys like you...

http://community.webshots.com/user/yenko_copo

 

[MikeH]

Yenko,

Aren't you concerned about the closeness of the brake line to the header in picture #14?