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Hartwell modified Head and Intake manifold?

jdoclogan

Platinum Level Sponsor
Following up on a very informative discussion three months ago by Bernd, Oliver and others http://forum.sunbeamalpine.org/index.php?threads/original-zenith-to-manifold-gasket.28354/. First, I want to say to Bernd and Oliver I am keenly disappointed the UK Sunbeam spares meet will not be taking place this year. To listen in on a conversation between you two (yes, I would have ease dropped without permission) would have been one of my 2020 European Automobile extravaganza's highlights. Oh well, there will be 2021.

I found errors and couldn't delete so I will add my text and photos later.

Revised posting below
 
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alpine_64

Donation Time
Jerry,

The throttle bracket was the advice from the series II special tunning guide.

The extensive head skimming will not have been Hartwell and likely during its rebuild or modified along the way.

Ill have to find the hartwell specs.. But i can't recall if the stage III tune had flat tops as part of the spec.. I recall it had head mods, lighten and balanced flywheel and clutch and 10.6:1 compression comes to mind.. So flat top would certainly help that.
 

jdoclogan

Platinum Level Sponsor
Michael you are way to quick I had a couple errors and tried to delete but will follow up tomorrow. In the meantime do check on your info.
 

Limey

Donation Time
Here's my list of tuning manual upgrades. I've still got a way to go...
 

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alpine_64

Donation Time
Oliver a you looking to buy the redline weber manifold? Thats the gooseneck style warnerford style setup. The stage IV style ( and brabham/ holbsy/ hartwell style) manifols was more a shorter straight design.

Also what webers do you have... Ex- H120 holbay spec or period DCO/ DCOE?
 

jdoclogan

Platinum Level Sponsor
Following up on a very informative discussion three months ago by Bernd, Oliver and others http://forum.sunbeamalpine.org/index.php?threads/original-zenith-to-manifold-gasket.28354/. First, I want to say to Bernd and Oliver I am keenly disappointed the UK Sunbeam spares meet will not be taking place this year. To listen in on a conversation between you two (yes, I would have ease dropped without permission) would have been one of my 2020 European Automobile extravaganza's highlights. Oh well, there will be 2021.

Now taking off from some of what was communicated in the above sited thread I want to share some findings in my scattered and yet organized piles of Sunbeam parts. Questions may arise about Hartwell tuning and I will share what I have and await anyone who might chime in.

This is a photo of the my USA Promotional Harrington Le Mans at the March, 1962 Sebring race press trailer.
upload_2020-5-6_11-50-16.png
My HLM was specifically purchased by Greg Vederoff (a successful 50s/60s Porsche sports car owner/driver racer) for the 1962 racing season in the Pacific Northwest. Then Vederoff traded it to the Forsgren brothers (racing legends on the West Coast in the 50s/60's) early 1963 for one of their hand built race cars. The complete numbers matching engine was provided to me by the third owner from whom I purchased the HLM in 1998. He needed to install another engine (1725) after the #1 rod broke and excavated a hole though the original block at 51,000 miles, December 1, 1968. I still have all of the components from the original engine and this is what I found today.

Because this was the USA Promotional HLM I can assume that the original engine was tuned by George Hartwell. I would also assume that it was race ready minus the limited slip differential ordered from the factory by Vederoff. I believe, based on the complete engine investigation, it was a Stage III tuning.

Here are photos of what I have:

The engine incorporated flat top pistons most likely giving it the 10:1 compression ratio for stage III tuning.
upload_2020-5-6_11-51-51.png
The left over #1 piston after rod failure.
upload_2020-5-6_11-52-12.png

Comparing HLM intake manifold (Hartwell tuned) with twin Zenith 150s to a stock manifold. Note: The difference in inlet port sizes 35mm (no ridge) to 33mm (ridge for metal cylindrical insert) respectively.
upload_2020-5-6_11-53-12.pngupload_2020-5-6_11-53-31.pngHartwell tuned on the right (no ridges).

Comparing HLM 1952 block (Hartwell tuned) with Stock 1592 block. Note: The difference in exhaust port sizes 35mm (ported/no ridge) to 33mm (not ported/ridge) respectively. Difference in inlet, Hartwell tuned is ported (no casting imperfections) and stock is not ported (casting imperfections).
Hartwell exhaust port and polished (top orifice) Stock exhaust port with significant casting ridges (bottom orifice).
upload_2020-5-6_11-54-31.pngupload_2020-5-6_11-55-7.png
Hartwell inlet (28mm) port and polished (bottom orifice) Stock inlet (28mm) casting ridges (top orifice)

The Zeniths have the throttle bracket reinforcement. I don't believe this was done by Hartwell.
upload_2020-5-6_11-56-28.png

Here is a shot of the original carburetor to a Hartwell manifold. I don't see the thicker gasket (mount to manifold) that you were referring to in your thread above Bernd. However, it is possible the Zeniths were removed and paper gaskets replaced the thicker example Bernd found in a drawing.
upload_2020-5-6_11-56-54.png

The head was significantly shaved (Note: At the bottom you can see exposed threads.) This probably led to a very high compression ratio and the demise of the rod.
upload_2020-5-6_12-0-36.png
I don't believe the shaving was done by the Hartwell team. I do have records showing there was a rebuild done at 20,000 - 21,000 miles by the Forsgren brothers in 1966 with valve replacements. They were very successful racing their hand built cars. However, my HLM was not raced by them it was used to tow there race cars to the track. I still have the tow bar system that was installed.
 
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jdoclogan

Platinum Level Sponsor
Oliver a you looking to buy the redline weber manifold? Thats the gooseneck style warnerford style setup. The stage IV style ( and brabham/ holbsy/ hartwell style) manifols was more a shorter straight design.

Also what webers do you have... Ex- H120 holbay spec or period DCO/ DCOE?

This is what appears to be a Rootes number stamped Weber manifold.
upload_2020-5-6_12-16-7.pngupload_2020-5-6_12-17-1.png

The Weber mounting orifices are 39mm
upload_2020-5-6_12-18-7.png

However the manifold to head orifices are 27mm mating up to 28mm head intake ports. Very odd to have a step at the transition points.
upload_2020-5-6_12-19-49.png
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
Jerry the manifold is the standard holbay H120/ GLS off the arrow series.

It has the tapered runners to match the smaller holbay head ports.
To use this on an alpine you cut a wedge out of the runners and then weld together again
 

jdoclogan

Platinum Level Sponsor
I'm thinking one could just bore out the runners as they are straight. You only need 1mm.
 

65beam

Donation Time
Jerry,
As Michael said the H120 intake was designed to fit the Holbay head used on a couple versions of the Arrow range of cars. That's the reason for the smaller ports. The Arrow range engines after production of the series 5 ended did not set upright in the engine bay. They set angled to the right side. That would require cutting to fit in the engine bay of a series car as Michael said. The Stromberg intake for the Arrow range sold here in the states is different from the series 5 unit as is the exhaust manifold. I tried to fit one to a series car with no intent to use it and it couldn't be used. These cars also had a different bell housing and transmission than series Alpines. The H120 and the GLS were not sold in the states. This photo of my 69 Alpine GT shows how the engine set.100_0254.JPG
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
I'm thinking one could just bore out the runners as they are straight. You only need 1mm.
Jerry, the engines sit at a 10° cant, cant bore it out the carbs will angle down.. Dcoess must work between level and 5° upward angle...

The mod is well known in the UK.. The alpjne guide has diagrams... But the manifolds are best avoided for an upright motor
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
Hey Jerry,

There are several DCOE manifolds that were offered for the alpine. The modern Pierce, Redline, Webcon is based on the old warnerford design. This is the easiest route for a LHD car as the design lifts the carbs higher and allows the manifold to clear the steering box morr easily and iirc has some small issues with the M/C. This style of manifold also allows for longer velocity stacks.

On a RHD there is more room thanks to the steering and hydraulics being on the right. You can run the more period popular straight in shorter manifold that in some cases allows for the retention of an unaltered scuttle to arch brace. You do require shorter stacks though. The period Hartwell, Brabham, LYNX, magnotessi, CT and Early Holbay setups were all the short straight in version.

Re Harringtons with twin sidedrafts, the autocar article of the Harrington Alpine with 2x DCO (NOT DCOE) was the only period car tetsed with the twin setup. The Sebring Harrington ran 2xDCO webers on a weber manifold on its secomd outing in '63..this was again a short inlet and maintained an unmodified scuttle brace.

The FIA homologated 2 x 40DCO webers for the Alpine in '63 and iirc Holbay actually prepared the motors for that years LeMans 24hr and tour de France. They ran 2x40DCO webers but note that they modified the scuttle brace for clearance
 

jdoclogan

Platinum Level Sponsor
Thanks Michael. I will digest all of this. Since the Sebring Alpine is RHD then maybe the Holbay manifold will work.
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
Thanks Michael. I will digest all of this. Since the Sebring Alpine is RHD then maybe the Holbay manifold will work.
Jerry, in short thats a bad idea... The holbay manifold you have can work if you cut a wedge out of the runners and weld it back together, but apart from all the work it will still have smaller ports and no longer a consistent taper.

The straight holbay manifold is a hens tooth situation... Ive seen 2 in the last 15 years.

Ill send you an email, as i have access to my parts stash currently ill show you some parts.

On a side note.. Are you thinking of running DCOE on the sebring car as opposed to the Zeniths?
 

Limey

Donation Time
Oliver a you looking to buy the redline weber manifold? Thats the gooseneck style warnerford style setup. The stage IV style ( and brabham/ holbsy/ hartwell style) manifols was more a shorter straight design.

Also what webers do you have... Ex- H120 holbay spec or period DCO/ DCOE?
Period spec Webers. There is a guy in the UK selling new straight castings that do need machining though. I think There is an Australian supply off straight manifolds but I'd have to re-check. Not cheap tho.
 

bernd_st

Bronze Level Sponsor
Give the Hartwell inlet and the Zenith's a good glass blast/cleaning. Then get the Zenith's overhauled (can help you) and run them. You won't be first notch but at least you'll run in period style ;)

Just my 2 cent, didn't Zenith's win the thermal efficiency award @ LeMans?
 

Limey

Donation Time
Give the Hartwell inlet and the Zenith's a good glass blast/cleaning. Then get the Zenith's overhauled (can help you) and run them. You won't be first notch but at least you'll run in period style ;)

Just my 2 cent, didn't Zenith's win the thermal efficiency award @ LeMans?

I have a big glass bead cab in my workshop and a heated ultrasonic bath and I finish them with aluminium brightener. Looks like new and not shiny. I hate shiny. I prefer Zeniths but for 'fun' I want to build a period Weber set up as well. Bernd - can you supply with spindles to restore 3 pairs of Zeniths? PM me costs. Cheers Oliver
 

bernd_st

Bronze Level Sponsor
Oliver,

would need to check my stocks at first. Can get some made if not enough. Only throttle spindles but how about accelerator / choke spindles ? Could do them as well ;)
 

Limey

Donation Time
Oliver,

would need to check my stocks at first. Can get some made if not enough. Only throttle spindles but how about accelerator / choke spindles ? Could do them as well ;)
Yes do them as well! Cash or swap. tell me what you need :) I might make some Phenolic or black acrylic carb spacers
 
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