-
Welcome to the new SAOCA website. Already a member? Simply click Log In/Sign Up up and to the right and use your same username and password from the old site. If you've forgotten your password, please send an email to membership@sunbeamalpine.org for assistance.
If you're new here, click Log In/Sign Up and enter your information. We'll approve your account as quickly as possible, typically in about 24 hours. If it takes longer, you were probably caught in our spam/scam filter.
Enjoy.
Engine cranking too slowly to start
- Thread starter Ohiojohn
- Start date
Ken Ellis
Donation Time
Verify good clean ground connections from battery to chassis, and chassis to transmission at trans crossmember. I added one from firewall bolt to head bolt on engine (stacked hex nuts...)
Starter brushes and starter solenoid connections would also be worth a look, too.
Mine cranks easier in neutral, rather than with clutch depressed.
How old is the battery?
Starter brushes and starter solenoid connections would also be worth a look, too.
Mine cranks easier in neutral, rather than with clutch depressed.
How old is the battery?
Note that the normal ground strap for the engine is a heavy braided strap located on the transmission mounting bracket (goes from the tranny itself to a chassis bolt). Check that the strap is there and not all corroded. OR add a separate, new ground somewhere in the engine compartment like Ken suggested.
Tom
Tom
Ohiojohn
Donation Time
Ok, cleaned the area and replaced the battery ground to the battery box and added another ground from the chasis to the tranny cross member.....still the same result. before pulling the starter I checked the battery again. I noticed that I was sold a battery than is different than the specs for the car. They sold me one with 610 cold cranking amps and 760 cranking amps....it looks like it needs to have 750 cold cranking amps and 930 cranking amps. Could this be my problem or is it time to just pull the starter and see if the brushes are shot?
mikephillips
Donation Time
If it was January perhaps, but at this time of year shouldn't matter much. In addition to the things already mentioned, make sure the ground in the battery box is clean where it fastens to the box, those can develop rust. Might also check the condition of the cable from the battery to solenoid and it's connections. It's possible the solenoid could be going, you can bridge the two terminals with a screwdriver to check and see if it spins faster. Other than these and what's already been mentioned, the next step is the starter.
Ken Ellis
Donation Time
Getting the correct battery is always good, so I'd go ahead with that. Ask for them to verify it's charged, and putting out full voltage under load.
Is the car negative or positive ground?
Do you know the history of this engine? As in, have you (or someone you trust) seen it run?
If it's coming back to life from long-term storage, there are a variety of things that could be at issue: incorrect valve adjustment, (resulting in exhaust valves never opening), partial hydro-lock due to head gasket issues, just general gunk in the cylinder bores, etc.
(Although I don't think it's an issue in this case, another thing that sometimes happens after long-term storage is the clutch friction disk gets stuck to the flywheel, which prevents the clutch pedal from disconnecting the engine and transmission... so it's always "in gear." Not a problem in neutral, but can be surprising when attempting to start with trans in gear and the clutch depressed.)
Just for grins... before you tear into it, try spinning the engine with no compression -- unplug the coil, take the plugs out, pinch off the fuel line, trans in neutral. I would say, if it's slow then, and your battery and connections are up to snuff, it's the starter.
Is the car negative or positive ground?
Do you know the history of this engine? As in, have you (or someone you trust) seen it run?
If it's coming back to life from long-term storage, there are a variety of things that could be at issue: incorrect valve adjustment, (resulting in exhaust valves never opening), partial hydro-lock due to head gasket issues, just general gunk in the cylinder bores, etc.
(Although I don't think it's an issue in this case, another thing that sometimes happens after long-term storage is the clutch friction disk gets stuck to the flywheel, which prevents the clutch pedal from disconnecting the engine and transmission... so it's always "in gear." Not a problem in neutral, but can be surprising when attempting to start with trans in gear and the clutch depressed.)
Just for grins... before you tear into it, try spinning the engine with no compression -- unplug the coil, take the plugs out, pinch off the fuel line, trans in neutral. I would say, if it's slow then, and your battery and connections are up to snuff, it's the starter.
Ohiojohn
Donation Time
Thanks Mike. The engine was already in the car when I got it and i noticed last night that the heavy braided cable looks to be connected to the block and the chasis in the front right corner (under the brake booster cylinder). Can/should I run a separate one from the battery box to the transmission crossmember? or is there a better location?
Ohiojohn
Donation Time
The car belonged to my neighbor. Her husband passed away mid restoration, but between his notes and her account of what happened they got it started and he drove it around the block a few times (sans doors, hood or anything else in the cabin area except a seat). He then had a heart attack a few months later and it has sat since. I do know he had the engine rebuilt professionally and other things I can garner from the reciepts and notes left behind.
I guess at this point I am going to pull the starter and check it over and have it tested. I'll also replace all the cables and look at adding the additional grounds recommended. Hopefully that fixes the issue. If not, I'll pull the head and see whats happening there. I'm not a mechanic so that part is a little scary. I do my own brakes, starters, alternators and water pumps (and rebuilt the transfer case in my Cherokee) so I'm sure i can figure it out with a little help
Ohiojohn
Donation Time
Ken, I have turned it with the plugs out. Still not fast for what I would expect or see on newer cars (I pulled my ranger plugs and it cranked very fast).
As far a hydro lock, the engine does spin at a slow speed with the plugs out..no liquid was expelled.
I know i have spark and gas......the engine just won't spink quick enough to fire. I'm going to pull the starter and see what I have while also completing the steps below (all suggestions to increase the ground). It looks like it's negative ground (negative battery cable to the battery box).
I'll take a shot at it tonight and see what happens.
Do local auto stores carry replacement brushes for the starter, or do i need to go online?
Thanks to all for the suggestions!
As far a hydro lock, the engine does spin at a slow speed with the plugs out..no liquid was expelled.
I know i have spark and gas......the engine just won't spink quick enough to fire. I'm going to pull the starter and see what I have while also completing the steps below (all suggestions to increase the ground). It looks like it's negative ground (negative battery cable to the battery box).
I'll take a shot at it tonight and see what happens.
Do local auto stores carry replacement brushes for the starter, or do i need to go online?
Thanks to all for the suggestions!
Ken Ellis
Donation Time
Ok, starter would be my next step, too.
Chances are pretty slim on just getting brushes. Maybe from a auto electric rebuilder of starters and alternators, but not from a standard auto parts store.
I think Tom H. got a starter from a standard local supplier by specifying one for an MG something-or-other. Search his 7000mile thread for details.
Good luck!
Oh, I forgot -- do you have the crank to just crank-start it? No battery limitations there!
Chances are pretty slim on just getting brushes. Maybe from a auto electric rebuilder of starters and alternators, but not from a standard auto parts store.
I think Tom H. got a starter from a standard local supplier by specifying one for an MG something-or-other. Search his 7000mile thread for details.
Good luck!
Oh, I forgot -- do you have the crank to just crank-start it? No battery limitations there!
Not sure if local stores carry replacement brushes. But Auto Zone and O'Reilly's and others carry replacement starters - about $50 exch. Ask for a starter for a 72 MG Midget. They won't list an Alpine starter, but the same starter is used on about 100 different Brit cars from 60-75 or so. P/N 16121.
Tom
Tom
Nickodell
Donation Time
Slow starters can be due to a partial break in the windings, allowing some current to pass but not enough for the 60+ or more needed to turn an engine against compression. Worn brushes or a disconnected/broken brush shunt (wire) almost always results in intermittent or zero turning, not a slow one. Checking winding continuity is a pro's job, unless you are experienced and have the right equipment.
If you do dismantle the starter, don't make the mistake of cleaning the commutator with emory paper. This should have a shiny gray appearance, caused by the film laid down by the brushes through an electrophoresis process similar to electroplating. The film not only protects the bronze metal the comm is made from, it is essential for proper commutation. If the film is soty or greasy, then cleaning with a rag is OK.
Starters are relatively cheap, so I personally wouldn't waste time trying to track down an internal electrical fault.
If you do dismantle the starter, don't make the mistake of cleaning the commutator with emory paper. This should have a shiny gray appearance, caused by the film laid down by the brushes through an electrophoresis process similar to electroplating. The film not only protects the bronze metal the comm is made from, it is essential for proper commutation. If the film is soty or greasy, then cleaning with a rag is OK.
Starters are relatively cheap, so I personally wouldn't waste time trying to track down an internal electrical fault.
I was able to remove and install the starter without undoing the exhaust, but it DID require unbolting the clutch slave. I was able to keep the line and the fork connected, just unbolted the slave and pushed it aside. That gave me enough clearance to manuver the starter out.
Tom
Tom
If you have a couple of friends handy, Alpines are very easy to push start. That might help you isolate the problem. Of course, you will have to push it home if it still doesn't start that way.
Ohiojohn
Donation Time
Hi Tom, the clutch slave on mine is well above the starter. The long end that goes through the bell housing is not allowing me to get it pulled back far enough. Keeps hitting the exhaust.
RootesRacer
Donation Time
Look on Ebay, they have brushes for the lucas starters on there quite often and very inexpensive.
Pull the starter about as far back as you can, it will hit the exhaust, then push slightly back in and tip the rear of the starter outwards, toward the side of the car. In my case it would then hit the clutch hydraulic line. But once I moved the clutch slave, the line moved enough to allow me to wiggle the starter out (and in) angled outwards. The gear end did hang up on the flywheel a bit, but a few wiggles and it came out.
What happens when you tilt it outward? What does it hit? Do you have a rubber cover over the hole where the gear end comes thru the bellhousing? Maybe remove that for more wiggle room.
Edit: I just checked my engine! What engine do you have that has the clutch slave well above the starter??? On an Alpine 4 cyl the slave is clearly UNDER the starter.
Tom