Cylinder #5 saga?kicking my butt.

[Duke]

Did some more measuring and observations -

My pistons are sitting .030 in the hole at TDC. They are .030 oversized pistons (have a 30 stamped in the center) so the pins were offset .020 to allow for block decking. Well, the PO did not have the block decked so instead of the .010 the piston should have, they are .030 down.

This creates a much lower compression ratio. So here is our plan, we will CC the combustion chambers and see what we need to do to get the compression ratio in the ~9.5:1 range. This may involve a .015 steel head gasket and some head shaving.

For valves - 1.5"(+.05) exhaust valves and 1.72" (+.05) intakes with larger stems will be installed.

It is all coming together to explain why this engine used so much fuel. Looking at the top of this thread at the first dyno, expect to see some really nice gains in power. The engine will do this using much less fuel.

I will post some pictures of the current condition of the valve seats soon.

 

[Duke]

Here are the dreaded pictures -

Note how sunk the valve seats are, larger intake will correct most of the intake side. New hardened exhaust seats with new valves the exhaust.

You can see the uneven contact area of the seat here -

The ugliest of all, check out the chatter marks on the valves as the cutting stone was allowed to skip on the valve surface.

 

[agmason]

If you pulled the engine, you may want to change the timing gear to a roller type, change the rockers to roller tip, install a roller cam, install roller lifters. This will give you around 25 - 35 HP more if interested. A owner did the same changes to a 260 bored .30 over and registered 280 HP. The parts are not cheap but its something to think about.

 

[Duke]

If you pulled the engine, you may want to change the timing gear to a roller type, change the rockers to roller tip, install a roller cam, install roller lifters. This will give you around 25 - 35 HP more if interested. A owner did the same changes to a 260 bored .30 over and registered 280 HP. The parts are not cheap but its something to think about.

Great info but not interested in doing a 260 hipo...I will spend that money on a 331 stroker that is not the original engine and is expendable.

 

[64beam]

Great info but not interested in doing a 260 hipo...I will spend that money on a 331 stroker that is not the original engine and is expendable.

Hi Duke,

Just as a comparison, I went to a local club dyno day last week and one member had a 347 stroker motor and a few with 302 crate motors. There was not a huge amount of difference between the stroker and the crate motors (approximately 20 Hp at the rear wheels). I don't know what parts were used in the stroker either. You may want to look into the crate motors as a comparison.

Regards, Robin.

 

[Duke]

There was not a huge amount of difference between the stroker and the crate motors (approximately 20 Hp at the rear wheels).

Thanks Robin,

Sounds to me like the builder of that 347 did a poor job or the ignition and induction systems need a serious look. 45 CI should yield much more than 20 RWHP. I am wanting/needing ~350 RWHP with the 331 and my engine builder can easily do that. He may have to even de-tune his built engine to keep the HP at that level.

 

[64beam]

Thanks Robin,

Sounds to me like the builder of that 347 did a poor job or the ignition and induction systems need a serious look. 45 CI should yield much more than 20 RWHP. I am wanting/needing ~350 RWHP with the 331 and my engine builder can easily do that. He may have to even de-tune his built engine to keep the HP at that level.

I am not sure of the quality of the components (alpine_64 knows the brands), but the intake is an Edelbrock Performer with a Carter 625CFM carby or there abouts. The induction side could be better to start with. That is some serious Hp you are after . That would be around the 450-500 flywheel Hp if not more. What are you planning with that kind of mumbo?

Regards, Robin.

 

[Chuck Ingram]

Duke
You could just of bought that radical Tiger with the 500HP windsor that was on EBAY.The work and stuff did indeed look good.

 

[Duke]

That would be around the 450-500 flywheel Hp if not more. What are you planning with that kind of mumbo?

Paul Burke, my engine builder, was talking in the 600 HP range with a 347. That’s all of the stops pulled out and when he drove my car with the sickly 260, he then knew that it would be way too much HP. He agreed with me that ~350 to the wheels will allow for pedaling in 2nd and maybe 3rd to keep the wheels from spinning. This would make for a very fun ride indeed.

Here is an example of Paul's work -

This is a BMW M10 (2.2L) four banger he built and it produces 260 RWHP. This was put into a 2002 and raced extensively. He has also built a BMW S38, 3.5L turbo engine that develops ~800 HP. As far as V8's, he builds them for race boats and NASCAR.

Here is a pic of the last engine he helped me to build -

It was in a 1985 BMW M535i, straight 6 3.5L SOHC turbocharged....developed ~350 at 13 psi. I was tired of constanty tuning the computers and fixing broken parts, so I sold it to buy my Tiger.

 

[alpine_64]

Hey Duke,

The stroker motor that the club member is running is based on a mexican 302 block with Victor Jr edelbrock heads and crower stroker kit IIRC. He was not running roller cam or rockers which probably cost him quite a bit of HP and his cam is not that wild.

As for enoromous HP.. well.. half the time i think its all a pi$$ing comp. What matters is how it hooks up to the road. Not much point in claiming dyno figures if all you do is get a bunch of tyre smoke at the lights (unless thats your thing)

I would like to do a stroker motor one day.. but to be honest if i was going to build a killer tiger motor i would go an alloy block.. would be more benificial than silly HP figures.

As a side note.. Tim Ronaks Tiger motor is a real eye opener. He did a write up on the tigers united site (lunati stroker) If i was going to build a stroker motor i would follow what he did.. (he got 381bhp to the wheels and in a relaible not high revving way) Go to youtube and look at the profile of 350tiger - there are a few videos of him at the autocross.. all i have to say is WOW

 

[Duke]

UPDATE -

All of the pieces to be powder coated are ready to include the radiator. Had a delay waiting on the fan shroud to be returned from having a dent removed. The exhaust manifolds have had casting marks and burs removed and are ready for ceramic coating.

Pistons and cylinders are clean; most of engine is painted correct color. Painting an engine in place is quite a PITA.

Will wrap up the engine in plastic and then address the painting needs of the engine compartment. Will be using POR 15 for a base and then covered with POR 15 chassis black paint.

I should have the heads back from Paul soon.

 

[64beam]

Hi Duke,

The block looks good in the fresh coat of blue. Was everything OK with the bottom end of the motor? Were you keeping the cast iron heads or going for a nice set of aluminium ones? Can you please post a picture of the headers once coated. I would be interested in seeing how they come out.

Regards, Robin.

 

[Duke]

Was everything OK with the bottom end of the motor? Were you keeping the cast iron heads or going for a nice set of aluminium ones? Can you please post a picture of the headers once coated. I would be interested in seeing how they come out.

Evereything in the bottom looked great, the builder did that right at least.

Keeping the OEM heads. Keeping this 260 as close as stock as possable with minor performance upgrades. Saving $$$ for the future stroker. Even so, this little project will cost ~$1100.

Will post much more pictures. The manifolds will be colored grey which is close to what the cast iron color is cleaned up. To be really correct, they should be an overspray of Ford blue (or Black). The manifolds were bolted to the block when the engines were painted. Due to the manifold heat, the paint was soon burned off though. The same goes for the manifold bolt lock tabs.

 

[Duke]

Getting closer. Picked up the ceramic and powder coated parts. The Ford blue is rattle-can engine paint.

Check out the new valve covers -

The engine decal was hand stamped by Larry Atkisson for $35. Here is his email - catkisson@aol.com

Here is a question - were the valve cover bolts steel or the 289HiPo aluminum?

 

[64beam]

Hi Duke,

The parts look great . The headers look so much better then the rusty cast iron and I will have to get polishing with my valve covers. I will have to look into it. I am only going by my Tiger, but I am 99% sure that the bolts are steel.

Keep us posted,

Regards, Robin.

 

[Duke]

Can you please post a picture of the headers once coated. I would be interested in seeing how they come out.

As requested...some better pictures. They are also coated on the inside.

 

[alpine_64]

Duke,

I was reading ocatne magazine the other day and in the back was a cceramic coating buisness advertising that they did blue and red aswell as the other colours.. are you gogin to paint blue over the headers.. or leave them in the ceramic finish?

 

[Duke]

are you gogin to paint blue over the headers.. or leave them in the ceramic finish?

No, I chose gray because that is close to what the cast iron's natural color is. They could have done them in blue but that would be too much of a change for my taste right now. Now, when headers or on the stroker engine, they will be silver!

 

[64beam]

Hi Duke,

Thanks for posting the pictures. I think the grey is a good choice as the blue headers would have looked too much (breaks up the blue engine). How long will the coating last for?

Thanks, Robin.

 

[alpine_64]

The manifolds will be colored grey which is close to what the cast iron color is cleaned up. To be really correct, they should be an overspray of Ford blue (or Black). The manifolds were bolted to the block when the engines were painted. Due to the manifold heat, the paint was soon burned off though. The same goes for the manifold bolt lock tabs.

thats why i was suggesting the blue ceramic.. you would have a stock look and the proyection.. to me it looks like you are building a stock looking motor..

As for the next engine.. yes.. silver headers are nice.. mine are satin chrome ceramic coated on the tiger... on the alpine I have used a Flat black.. makes the webers stand out more