Weber Spacer

[Durhamguy]

I have the Alpine Innovation Weber set up including special manifold. The problem I have is gas oozing out from the spacer when the engine is turned off after running. Not running out but enough to wet your finger when swiped across.

I have gone through two of the plastic spacers supplied by AI, both oozed gas. Now (since May) I have a Phenolic spacer and recently have noticed the same issue. The headers are wrapped with heat resistant material, the gas line has heat resistant wrap too and is routed around the rear of engine. The gas line filter, fills but if left a few days the gas disappears even though I have it point at angle downward. It is darn hard to start even though I have a spark at the point contacts and #1 spark plug. When it runs/drives it is strong.

The sealant I used is Permatex Anaerobic, fixed to manifold/spacer first, left overnight, then put the Weber on with sealant next morning. Yes, I have space on the right way to match the Weber. Would Hylomar Universal Blue be better - that is what I used to fit the intake manifold on and have had no problems there.

Could it be a vacuum issue? I don't have a proper 5/8 UNF plug (have ordered one) so I used the servo plug and capped it with tubing.

Anybody any idea what is going on with the oozing gas?

 

[husky drvr]

I have the Alpine Innovation Weber set up including special manifold. The problem I have is gas oozing out from the spacer when the engine is turned off after running. Not running out but enough to wet your finger when swiped across.

When it runs/drives it is strong.

Could it be a vacuum issue?

Anybody, any idea what is going on with the oozing gas?

Just an observation David,

Your description doesn't sound like you have a vacuum leak when running. If the spacer doesn't leak vacuum, it should not leak fuel at any time, either.

If the carb is leaking internally, fuel should puddle in the bottom of the manifold and still shouldn't be leaking at the spacer.

I would suggest a search for an external leak - maybe a loose jet holder or fuel line clamp. If you are not using rubber fuel line resistant to ethanol, it might be breaking down and becoming porous. (Just for info - there is no fuel passage in contact with either throttle blade shaft.) The worst case would be if you were to discover a porous casting flaw in the float chamber which allows the fuel bowl to drain. Your hard starting sounds as if it might be related to an empty bowl, but that is not unusual in a car that sits for extended periods - the OE fuel pump only works when the engine is rotating.

Maybe a few pictures of the problem areas might give someone a better idea of a suggestion to help you.

 

[Barry]

I think Don's (husky drvr) analysis is dead on.

Gasoline fluoresces under UV light and an inexpensive UV flashlight such as this one makes it pretty easy to see even small leaks:

https://www.amazon.com/Flashlight-Portable-Ultraviolet-Detector-Batteries/dp/B00GU55270/ref=sr_1_3_sspa?crid=124J9BI8PKOL4&keywords=uv+flashlights&qid=1666703999&qu=eyJxc2MiOiI1LjQyIiwicXNhIjoiNC45NCIsInFzcCI6IjQuNzEifQ==&sprefix=UV+fl,aps,88&sr=8-3-spons&smid=AAF37WJS3P6BT&th=1​

FWIW, UV light causes a lot of hydrocarbon fractions (including a lot of oils and greases) to fluoresce and can be very useful around an older vehicle.

 

[Durhamguy]

Thanks to both of you that helps. I am attaching some pics.

I use Shell V-power 91 octane gas, research has verified that it contains no ethanol. The fuel hose is new as of last summer and is rated R14 from NAPA. The nylon hose from the pump is thread through the new hose and clamped in 4-5 places. No leakage around fuel union. Already had that problem and they replaced the Weber. The vacuum issue I have temporally fixed.

From the pictures you can see the fuel leak.

 

[Tim R]

David,
That is a very odd problem. You should not need any sealant on those gaskets. You appear to be over fuelling but where is it coming out from? An external leak possibly through the casting has to be favourite. It could be the float has 'sunk' but that doesn't explain why the fuel is escaping there. When my float stopped floating the car ran very rich and Weber replaced it under warranty. They blamed ethanol for causing it to sink.

As far as the hard starting is concerned, we have for many years fitted a one way valve. We route the petrol pipe around the rear of the engine bay to keep it cooler and have the one-way valve a few inches away from the carburettor. That way there is always petrol at the carb ready to start. As soon as it starts the pump fills the pipe and you're away.

Tim R

 

[Durhamguy]

Thanks for the insight Tim. I have contacted the supplier and they are thinking it through.

When you say "leak possibly through the casting" does that mean a crack or faulty gasket. I guess my question is really is it repairable or scrap with a casting leak?

I did watch the video a few days ago it is very good. The question I had at the time was is the rubber hose on the output side just slid over the existing black nylon tubing from the pump or is it a separate upgraded fitting arrangement? If it was slid over the nylon tubing to what length would the nylon tubing be cut back? Should I post the question on the video page instead? Never got around to it after I watched the video.

 

[Tim R]

On my fuel pump there are metal stubs coming out each side and the R9 rubber pipe just slides over these and then the petrol clip holds it in place. My car is a Series V but has never (or at least not since 1983) had the original style nylon pipe that Series Vs normally have.
It is mentioned above that it could be a porous casting flaw, that seems unlikely but is possible. The idea of using a UV torch is a very good one and should help you trace where the fuel is actually coming out from.

i would definitely have a look at your float and see if it is actually floating ON the fuel or sitting IN it and is the valve shutting off when petrol is in the chamber.

Tim R

 

[husky drvr]

Anybody any idea what is going on with the oozing gas?

David,

After looking at your two pictures, I became a bit perplexed about where your leak is presenting. Without the pics, I was thinking your leakage was showing on the front under the carb's float bowl. I checked an old DGF to be sure but there is NOT ANY fuel passage further to the rear than the idle fuel passage at the throttle bore center line.

I did notice the "roundish" clean spot on the carb base between the two throttle bores. My guess is that fuel is dripping onto that spot to keep it clean, as compared to the surrounding surfaces. The only possibility for a drip at that location is at the top cover to carb body joint. There also seems to be a possible, very faint, leak trail down the outside of the secondary throttle bore.

I think you will find that either the top cover gasket is damaged or missing, or possibly the top cover is loose or warped. Or maybe something else that would allow fuel in the bowl to splash and then seep along the top cover joint to the rear of the carb where it then finds its way to the carb base.

Maybe this can help you pinpoint your issue.

Good luck,

 

[Durhamguy]

Thanks Don, again very helpful. I now have a UV light. I will check the top cover and fire her up and use the UV light to try and find the leaking point(s).

As got a call from the supplier who basically repeated Tim's observations. I have a local carb shop who specialized in carb problems so I will pull it and drop it off to him on Friday. Hopefully, I will be able to pin point problem areas for him, though I know he is going to rebuild it which may be for the best given it's potential fire hazard.

I will up date on my investigation tomorrow. Thanks for everyone's input.

 

[Durhamguy]

To loop back on this topic. I tested the fuel pressure on the stock fuel pump it is 4psi. Higher than what the WSM cites. The 32/36 Weber needs 3psi according to research but haven't found a definitive source as comments range from 3-3.5psi. But accept my psi is higher than what a 32/36 Weber needs.

The Weber problem is due to float bowl overflow. The pics below tell the story. The fuel overflows and seeps into the K&N air filter plenum, runs around the rim and seeps down onto the body mainly around the idle mechanism but other areas show evidence as well. Whether it is due to a higher fuel pump psi or a fault in the float/shut off or a combination I do not know.

The Weber is being examined/rebuilt at the moment. Regarding my fuel pump, not sure if I should put a rebuild kit on it or buy a replacement from SS (as cost difference is not huge) but intake fitting is different (female) on new one, and I have a steel fuel line from tank with a male fitting. I could just put a Weber fuel regulator on it with a rebuild kit if psi is still high.

 

[Scotty]

What psi are our mechanical pumps rated at? I thought they were less than 4 psi.

Your problems are very parallel to the ones I had with performance and some bogging/flooding. Following.

 

[husky drvr]

Out of WSM 124:

General Data page 14 ( WSM 145 shows the same spec )-



Section C -Fuel Pump - page 7- ( of interest is the passage on how to remedy excessive pressure )

 

[Tim R]

I still think that your float has sunk and it is overflowing because the valve is letting petrol in all the time. As detailed above you could reduce the pressure of the mechanical pump by adding additional gaskets to space the pump out away from the block more but if the float has sunk that won't cure the problem and there tends to be plenty of tolerance for the pump pressure before it causes noticeable problems.

Tim R

 

[puff4]

Do you have the spacer in place on your fuel pump? There should be a spacer between the pump and block. Without it two things can happen - premature pump or cam failure, or excessive pump pressure. The further the pump is distanced from the block, the lower the pressure, so the pressure it develops can be somewhat adjusted by adding gaskets or shims to this joint.

 

[Durhamguy]

Yes a spacer is installed. Is it trial and error to determine how many gaskets will reduce pressure by one psi?

At this point, I am keeping my options open and waiting for the Weber to be rebuilt and then see how it reacts when installed. If the excess pressure still is present then the simplest "fix" to me would be to use a Weber regulator then I can set the pressure to spec (3psi or less).

Other options would rebuild current pump and add extra gaskets or buy a new pump (the later option being advisable just in case).

 

[Tim R]

It is no great hardship if you do need to add a regulator, my son has one on his car with an electric fuel pump. The regulator makes sure that the flow is constant and not excessive.
Tim R

 

[puff4]

Yes a spacer is installed. Is it trial and error to determine how many gaskets will reduce pressure by one psi?

At this point, I am keeping my options open and waiting for the Weber to be rebuilt and then see how it reacts when installed. If the excess pressure still is present then the simplest "fix" to me would be to use a Weber regulator then I can set the pressure to spec (3psi or less).

Other options would rebuild current pump and add extra gaskets or buy a new pump (the later option being advisable just in case).

Yes, it’s trial and error, but only takes an hour or so to get back to sorted. Faster, easier and cheaper than buying a regulator!

 

[Alpine 1789]

Other options would rebuild current pump and add extra gaskets or buy a new pump (the later option being advisable just in case).

This may have changed since I last looked, but the replacement pumps that are available today are not the same as stock. They don't have the glass bowl or the priming lever. I am sure they work fine, just wanted to be sure you knew you wouldn't be getting an exact replacement.

 

[Durhamguy]

My Weber 32/36 is now back home, so I wanted to provide an update to those who were good enough to provide their input.

The Carb Guy used identified 4 problems of various degrees.

1. Float. The fulcrum pin hole was too large almost as if it had been opened with a screwdriver. He didn’t take a picture of it but see attached Haynes diagram, item #2. This was causing the fulcrum pin and thus the float to wobble from side to side, so with engine vibration the float height could vary from say 30mm to 55m causing erratic idle, flooding, leakage etc. This was the main issue.

2. There was rubber debris in the Weber filter chamber. As a comment to that I used brand new quality fuel hose from NAPA.

3. Choke stiff. This was because the butterflies were rubbing on the body. Now it snaps back when released.

4. The needle value (item #4) used was all metal. He preferred a rubber tipped needle value but left it as is because the Weber was essentially new.

In general, the Carb Guy is a big Weber fan and was irritated by the assembly line lack of quality control compared to how Weber’s used to be produced (pretty much applies to many products these days). Side comment for Canadians, our gas is of a low quality compared to what is available in the US, this leads to premature carb issues and as such Premium gas is a better option.

Hope this write up helps folks suffering with any similar issues. Cheers

 

[Tim R]

David,
Your explanation fits with what we thought. It is such a shame that build quality on so many things is so very poor these days. It seems to be the case for so many different things. There has just been a large survey into vehicle reliability in the U.K. and Porsche came first as most unreliable and Audi were third, these premier German makes used to be beacons of quality and reliability, not anymore.

Hopefully your problems are solved and you can enjoy the car now.

Tim R