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voltmeter vs ameter

Nickodell

Donation Time
Nick, the volmeter does not measure the voltage of the battery when the engine is running. Upon startup, the voltage swings immediately to 14+volts. Thats how you know the system is charging. How can you be critical of a device you know so little about?

Bill
Yes, the voltmeter reads the voltage of the battery. And a battery that is being charged will have a voltage on its terminals of about 14 - 14.5 volts. Tom H

:)
 

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Sure,

Imagine a pump supplying water to irrigate a farmers field. The pump (alternator) can pump 45 gals (45 amps) (from Lake Erie) per minute at 25 PSI (14 volts). To help cover periods when the pump is not running due to electrical outages and also to to help deliver extra water - more than 45 gals per minute- we add an enclosed reservoir (battery) between the pump and the valve controlling the water flow to the field. Normally, with no water flowing into the field, the reservoir is filled (battery charged) and there is about 25 PSI (14 volts) in the whole system from the pump outlet to the reservoir and all the way to the valve controling the field flow. If the farmer opens the valve a bit to let 10 gals/min flow (like alpine owner turns on lights), water flows, but pressure stays near 25 psi, because pump can keep up. It drops slightly along the path from pump to outlet because some pressure is lost as energy is expended pushing the water along the pipes.(wire resistance). If he opens the valve all the way (alpine owner turns on wipers, radio, heater, driving light), then 55 gals /min will flow. But the pump can't keep up and we are taking water from the reservoir (discharging the battery). With more water coming out than the pump can maintain,the pressure drops- to 20 PSI (13 volts) . As the reservoir goes toward empty the pressure drops even more - Never goes to zero as long as the pump is running. But if the pump stops and the reservoir is empty, the pressure goes to just about zero.

Does that help?

Tom H
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Nick, the volmeter does not measure the voltage of the battery when the engine is running. Upon startup, the voltage swings immediately to 14+volts. Thats how you know the system is charging. How can you be critical of a device you know so little about?

Bill

:)

I have to contend that "charge on the terminals" does not equal battery charge and furthermore, "charge on the terminals" is not even related to battery charge. When the regulator goes blooey, voltage will instantly jump to 18 or so. Shut off the engine, voltage drops to 13. How did the battery instantly gain, then lose 5 volts of charge? If it is there, it is only in a very transient state and of no functional consequence.

Hook a "dead" battery to a running alternator, voltage will read 14. Kill the engine, voltage will drop back to the original "dead" reading. Are we going to use two definitions of battery charge?

But of course I could be wrong. Bureaucrats do not receive much in the way of EE training.

Bill
 

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Bill,

I am puzzled by your response. Nick never said that a voltmeter measures the "charge on the terminals". In fact, I don't know what that expression would even mean. The voltmeter does measure the "voltage on the terminals". As you and others have noted, this voltage measurement can tell you a lot. I like your thought that the voltmeter tells you something about the battery even before you turn the key.

Tom H
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Tom, my fault. I did not intend to substitute "charge" for "voltage". But in a way, this leaves me confused as I equate battery voltage with amount of charge.

In Nick' s post, he contends the voltmeter always reads the voltage of the battery. I interpret this to mean the voltage as a result of amount of charge as he further states the voltmeter will always read the voltage of the battery unless the battery is removed from the circuit. You agree with his statement and state the voltage on the terminals of a battery being charged is 14.0-14.5.

I know I am missing something here. Care to help me out? How does voltage on the terminals relate to battery voltage and battery charge? Are the differences just to subtle for me?

Bill
 

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Bill,

Nick had pointed out that my previous reply focused on only the output of the alternator and he was emphasizing the fact that the voltmeter is always measuring the battery voltage instead. The truth is that, with the rather low resistance of the wiring, the voltmeter is actually connected to the combination of the battery, the alternator, and the load. The voltmeter can only display the net result of this combination, It cannot tell you what any one part - Alt , Bat, or Load, is doing. But by understanding how each of these elements interract you can usually tell most of what you need to know.

Gordonra early in this thread showed us what the battery voltage will be on a typical unconnected battery at different levels of charge:

The open circuit voltage, measured when the engine is off. It can be approximately related to the charge of the battery by:
Open Circuit Voltage ~ State-of-charge
12.65 V 100 %
12.45 V 75 %
12.24 V 50 %
12.06 V 25 %
11.89 V 0 %

Note that this is a small change from full charge to zero. In addition, due to the chemistry of a battery the biggest factor is that the internal resistance of a battery goes up as it loses charge. Take that battery at 0% as noted above. But gee, it still has voltage! Yeah, but put even a small load on it, like one lamp, and its voltage will go to just about zero. (that big drop when loaded is what we call "Internal resistance" ) Add in the temperature variability and you can see that it's pretty hard to use a voltmeter as an absolute and accurate "state of charge" meter. This is true for just about any kind of battery. To really know well the state of charge of a battery you need to measure its voltage with no load and with some load. You mention the value of looking at the voltmeter before you turn the key, I would suggest you look at the meter, and then briefly turn on the parking lights and see what it reads. If it drops a bunch, you don't have much charge.

So that's about a unconnected battery. Now consider an alternator. It puts out about 14-15 volts at up to ,say 35 Amps. Remember the amps is what flows (like water) and the volts is what pushes the amps (like pressure) . The output voltage of an alternator would normally vary almost totally with the load- high voltage with no load and lower voltage with high current load. But the regulator controls the output voltage to be 14 to 15 volts, no matter what the load current is- unless the load current exceeds 35 Amps. Then it can drop below the regulated level simply because it does not have that great an output capacity.

Now connect the Alt to the Bat. Consider the empty battery noted above. Its voltage is 11.89. But when we connect the running alternator to it, its voltage goes immediately up. Not quite all the way to 14.5, but nearly. Does that mean the battery is now charged ? No. The voltage we measure at the battery terminals or at the alternator output will be about the same - not much difference - due to low resistance of the interconnecting wires. But that voltage we measure is mostly the result of the output of the alternator. But you say, how can the alternator put out 14 volts and be connected to a battery at 11.89 volts. Where is or what happened to the 2 volt difference? Remember what happened when we put a load on the empty battery? The battery voltage dropped to near zero, due to the battery's "internal resistance" With a load the internal resistance took away all the voltage. But now with an alternator SUPPLYING current instead of a load taking current, that same internal resistance ADDS voltage to the battery. That's how the battery voltage goes up to 14 volts, matching the alternator output voltage. That 2 volt increase is the direct result of the charging current flowing into the battery. But if you stop or disconnect the alternator shortly after starting it, the battery voltage will drop back to 11 volts.

But if you maintain the charging current for some time, gradually the battery will build up its charge and its internal voltage goes up, and the difference between the internal voltage and the alt voltage will decrease and the charging current will reduce.


So before starting the car the voltmeter can tell you if the battery has some charge, especially if you put a small load on it by turning on the lights while reading it.

Then when you start the car you can see, if the voltage goes up immediately, if the charging system is working.

And if you see the voltage go up a bit more over the next 5-10 minutes of running, it tells you that the battery is nearly fully re-charged, replacing most of the charge you lost during starting.

And if you turn on all the electrical devices and the voltage stays about the same, you know the alternator is not only working but can handle the full electrical load.

If you are driving along and you notice that the voltage has dropped below 14 volts you know that the charging system has failed.

What else do you need to know from your meter (ammeter or Voltmeter)? Not much.

Wow, this is long. But it will take you a lot less time to read than it took me to write!

Hope it helps. Kinda fun trying to explain stuff.

Tom H
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Tom, many, many thanks.

Very good explanation, needs to be archived for the next time the issue comes up. Say, maybe next month.

Bill
 

husky drvr

Platinum Level Sponsor
I am enjoying this thread too much, can't stop now.
:D

I think we should examine why so many autos only have an indicator light and no volt meter or ammeter. :rolleyes: These cars owner-operators do not seem to need a quantitative value, only qualitative, to determine the state of charging system operation. :eek:

Why is that?????
 

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Don, the reason for the "idiot light" is not that the typical owner doesn't need the quantitative info. It's because they could not figure out how to use the info. So just a light please. If the light is on, then I must take it to a mechanic who can use more equipment to figure out what is wrong.

Tom
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
Voltmeters and ammeters, used intelligently, tell you constantly and in real time what is going on with the electrical system, and can point to incipient faults before they turn into major ones and leave you stranded or on fire. The idiot light tells you that it's gone wrong, but not why or how, and only after it's happened.

Think of it this way. The volt/ammeter is like a constant blood test, monitoring all sorts of things like liver function, electrolytes, lipids, blood urea nitrogen, etc., from which the physician can point to an impending problem and prescribe a treatment. The idiot light tells you that you're going to die, or you're already dead.
 
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