Toyota's Monster

[Bill Blue]

Jarrid, it seems to me you have to accept all of her story or none of it. One part of it was witnessed by two other people, one a disinterested participant. So I have to believe it started on its own without the presence of the fob. If that happened, why not the rest of it?

I don't understand why you see contradictions. She related this as a terrifying, one time event, not something that had happened a half dozen times. Why shouldn't she sell the car? Toyota said it was fine, she had just lost confidence in it. The word of Toyota is mighty, you believe them now instead of her, don't you?

Bill

 

[Bill Blue]

American car companies bankrupt from making cars that fall apart and we're hauling Toyota through the mud over a gas petal. Who needs tarriffs.

John, this is not about gas pedals. Did you watch the video?

Bill

 

[jumpinjan]

So you see nothing ominous in all of those brake related sensors? What happens if you apply the brakes and the ECU does not see a signal from the brake stoke sensor?

No, I see nothing ominous with the schematic, and IT INDICATES NOTHING about how the software works .
Personally, I believe most of all this is made up and is being hyped up by the trial lawyers. A lot of all this just doesn't make any sense. I do believe the pedal sticking and floor mat interfering with it, but all this other stuff of the cars accelerating past 100mph. You need a lot of HP to go that fast.
Jan
If anything is ominous it is the electric motor driving the fluid pump. Did you know the Chevy Cobalt's steering pump is driven by an electric motor? It's because it more efficient that way for Chevy to be compliant with the Gov's MPG standards. Also, I don't think they are building cars with much steel in them, and I'm concerned with the push to build SMALLER, lighter and more fuel efficient, with the trade of less safe cars. I think the GOV must know that too!
Jan
Also, I heard weeks ago, when all this started, that the pedal DOES NOT fail all of a sudden, but instead will stick a little, then a little more and a little more. It is gradual and not just a huge single point failure........Again, this is all blown out of proportion.
Jan

 

[RootesRacer]

Jarrid, it seems to me you have to accept all of her story or none of it. One part of it was witnessed by two other people, one a disinterested participant. So I have to believe it started on its own without the presence of the fob. If that happened, why not the rest of it?

I don't understand why you see contradictions. She related this as a terrifying, one time event, not something that had happened a half dozen times. Why shouldn't she sell the car? Toyota said it was fine, she had just lost confidence in it. The word of Toyota is mighty, you believe them now instead of her, don't you?

Bill

Bill,

This stuff on TV is staged by congress (with a lower case g).
I have no doubt that to her this all happened, and I am sure that it was very terrifying for her.
Nor would I discredit any part of her story.
But now here is the crux, so many times when something goes wrong the actual events are misinterpreted and misreported after the fact.
So many times that when you hear of a car running away like that and driving through a wall or window or whatever, its later attributed to driver error hitting the accelerator instead of the brakes.
I dont own, nor have I ever owned a Toyota.
I have no skin in the game.

I do think it would be a good idea if congress would stop their shenanigans. To proceed any further is grossly inappropriate in the wake of the bailouts and union contributions to the majority of them.

And once again, let the people who have the actual facts (nhtsa) about the failures grill Toyota, keep the government officials out of the fray until the actual information is clear and known.

To do otherwise is being a party to the witch hunt.

 

[Bill Blue]

Jarrid, the uniqueness of this situation cannot be ignored. There is no question about hitting the wrong pedal or carpet jamming the accelerator. Or, for that matter, a jammed pedal. There is no after the fact reporting, all balled up so no one can recognize the original story. She is not a Johnny-come -lately, piling onto Toyota. There are witnesses to at least a portion of what she claims to have happened. I am not after Toyota. I do think they have a bigger problem than they want to admit.

I also think it is fascinating she tried all the remedies, brakes, gear and ignition that all the dead nincompoops are accused of not doing. And she made this a public record nearly 3 years ago, way before this became a "story". This has happened to several people, the dead ones are called stupid, the survivors are not believed.

But this was not the intent of the original post. It was meant to show how complex the systems have become and how the driver has lost control of the car. We tell the computer what we want to do, the computer does it the way it deems best. Almost a recreation of HAL in "2001, A Space Odyssy".

Jumping Jan, 272 hp., 0-60 in 6.8 sec.

Bill

 

[jumpinjan]

 

[Pumpkin]

I am sorry to hear about so many people hurt /killed over any car wreck. The thing about this one that drives me , is that for years "Toyloeta" has got off the hook was by bringing " jobs" to the state.

Paying off members of congress and of course all the buyers of those famed cars. The US has besides lost billions of dollars in tax revenues and other income, Toyota has been able to slip under the floor with this. I would say watch out for the other Asian and Euro companies to have more than "just " a notice.

A last note, if you have a Toyota, please stay in front of me so I can watch.

Chuck

 

[Nickodell]

All I know for certain is that my non-recalled Camry has lost 15% in value in three months.

 

[skywords]

All these new cars controlled by HAL series computers are very attractive with all the whistles and bells but for me when I have an unintentional acceleration I simply stop and replace the throttle return spring.

There is a leason here that I hope we can learn from. Keep it simple stupid.

If God forbin a nuke ever goes off the EMF will render all these cars dead. My old rattle box cars, trucks and bus will still drive.

 

[Nickodell]

Back in the 80s it was the Audi 4000 that was blamed for sudden, unbidden acceleration. In Manhattan, where I spent about 20% of my work week on business, some multilevel parking lots had notices NO AUDI 4000s. In time, the whole thing blew over and IIRC no systemic fault was ever found.

Here's what I think has been the cause of this, because it almost happened to me. Approaching the Valley Forge exit toll booths on the Pennsylvania Turnpike, I was squirming around in the seat trying to reach my wallet in my hip pocket, at the same time applying the brake with the tip of my right shoe. Instead of slowing, the car accelerated and the harder I "braked," the faster it took off. Luckily, before I rammed a toll booth or one of the vehicles in the queue, I realized what was happening - the heel of the shoe was pressing the accelerator pedal.

I'm 99% sure that this is the cause of many, if not most, cases of "runaway cars," of whatever make.

 

[skywords]

So I in otherwords Nick it's like your flight instructor said let go of everything and it will fly out of it.

 

[John W]

Here's what I think has been the cause of this, because it almost happened to me. Approaching the Valley Forge exit toll booths on the Pennsylvania Turnpike, I was squirming around in the seat trying to reach my wallet in my hip pocket, at the same time applying the brake with the tip of my right shoe. Instead of slowing, the car accelerated and the harder I "braked," the faster it took off. Luckily, before I rammed a toll booth or one of the vehicles in the queue, I realized what was happening - the heel of the shoe was pressing the accelerator pedal.

I'm 99% sure that this is the cause of many, if not most, cases of "runaway cars," of whatever make.

Wouldn't that be "the heel of MY shoe"?

I finally watched the lady in the video. The wrecker driver and husband certainly add some weight to her story. Response is typical from Toyota and news which get huge ad dollars from the auto dealers. Seems like that car could be examined for what is obviously some rare software malfuction.

My 87 Camry was such a good car, I sold it to someone I knew, and according to a witness, she drove off the opposite side of the road for no particular reason and hit a large drain structure and died at the scene. I remember the car had a recall that spilled drinks over the transmission shifter would cause a problem and I think they just put a cover over it.

 

[Jim E]

I have owned a few toyotas from new, 1978, 1984 and a 1989 all Corrolas. The 78 was a great simple small good gas mileage car that I wish I still owned, at over 100k it still drove like new. The 84 was pretty good and I sold it with over 200k and it still did not burn oil or do anything bad, well rusted. Then the newer one was junk burnt oil from day one had a steel wheel that leaked air it was jut a crap car with little problems. Then the early cars were much simpler carburated little boxes that went A to B the later car was the day of FI and cruise power everything and the cars were growing in size and complexity. So that there is a problem with the cars of today that are computers on wheels with an ipod should not surprise anyone.

Screw Audi, they make some really great driving junk

 

[Bill Blue]

I wonder how long it will be before cars are equiped with a kill switch that will depower the computer. What form will it take and how will it be explained to the public? Will it be called the Toyota switch?

Bill

 

[MikeH]

If most people couldn't think to turn off the ignition, why would they think to use a kill switch. Do motorcycles still have kill switches?

 

[Bill Blue]

Mike, it is appearing the people do think to turn off the ignition. The computer does not respond. They also think to apply the brakes, but the computer does not respond. They try to put the car in neutral, computer does not respond. All of this was the testimony of the woman from Tennessee, who documented her problems almost 3 years ago.

In retrospect, there is no reason to think the drivers that died did not try all this, especially the cop in California, who almost certainly was out of options when he made the cell phone call. It is illogic to think that a trained driver with probably hundreds of thousands miles of experience would not have. In my mind, computer problems are becoming the prime suspect. I did not feel that way until I watched her testimony. It just seemed to make everything fall into place.

Sorry Jarrid.

Bill

 

[RootesRacer]

Sorry Jarrid.

Bill

Nothing to be sorry about Bill.

One thing though, the transmission linkage is mechanical and the trans is not under the control of the drive train computer when mechanically disconnected from the engine.

Then there is also the e-brake which is also mechanical and separate from the main system.
There are few vehicles known to man that have more acceleration potential than breaking potential.

If all the above that you have heard is true (and this is entirely possible) then the planets must have all been lined up in a row to have caused multiple electronic, software and mechanical failures simultaneously.

If even 50% of the information is true and can be corroborated in test then Toyota is royally screwed.

I have to say though its made me a bit paranoid in releasing my own DBW hardware.

 

[Bill Blue]

Jarrid, I don't see the parking brake thing as a big issue. Hell, when my Gremlin was new, I let a friend take it for a spin. When he returned, he remarked about the power and acceleration it had. I noticed the car smelled funny, he had left the parking brake on the entire ride .They just are not that strong on any car I have driven, don't know about the Lexus.

As to the mechanical shifter, that is bothersome to my current train of thought. Do you happen to know if the transmission has internal locks designed to protect the transmission that might keep it in gear? In other words, do you know what happens if you put it in neutral at 70 mph and full throttle? I really have no idea. I'm not that much of an automatic guy and have never tried anything like that with any automatic.

As the correct alignment of the planets: I really think you are on to something there. Looking at the number of units on the road and frequency of "failure", I think that whatever is causing the problem occurs only under a specific set of circumstances, perhaps even specific circumstances combined with specific failures or system noise. Anything less than that and it would have been found.

Bill

 

[RootesRacer]

The E brake should always be able to lock the rears, and if it can lock the rears at 50mph, that's way more counter torque than the engine should be able to produce considering that you arent going to be in first or second gear at that speed.

I drive with the parking brake engaged all the time in the Honda (for about 5 secs when alarms sound off).
My wife never puts it down far enough to engage the brakes to keep the car from dragging backwards in neutral. Call it lazy.
When I apply the parking brake, the Honda aint going nowhere.

I suspect that the trans would have an electronic lockout to prevent putting it into 1st or 2nd or reverse at inappropriate speeds, but other than that disengaging the trans at full throttle should cause the motor to bounce off one of its rev limiters, which shouldn't even hurt the engine.

My Honda with DBW shifts its rev limiter to 4000 RPM when in neutral, whereas its like 7500 RPM otherwise.


Next lets consider that the same ECM and many sensors are common on most other Jananese cars. Denso is the Bosch of Japan, and make most all of the drivetrain systems for the Japanese auto industry. If Toyota is going down, so is Denso.

 

[Nickodell]

Jarrid, I don't see the parking brake thing as a big issue. Hell, when my Gremlin was new, I let a friend take it for a spin. When he returned, he remarked about the power and acceleration it had. I noticed the car smelled funny, he had left the parking brake on the entire ride.Bill

Didn't the head of Sunbeam do the same thing with the prototype Tiger?