Time to diagnosis the head gasket leak - Part 2

[Alpine 1789]

And here is the head itself:

As always, the collective wisdom of the club will be much appreciated!

 

[robertf]

Have you had any machine work done to the cylinder head, and are those valves all the same? They look a little different in the pictures. Have you retorqued the head bolts according to whatever service interval the book says?

I think I'd drop the head off at a good machine shop and them do a valve job and surface then reassemble.

 

[Tom H]

Jim, I'm not an expert, but it looks to me like on 3 of the cylinders there is corrosion in the surface between the cyl and the twinned water ports. Looks like not a good seal by the head gasket.

And I am puzzled about what appears to scrape marks on both the head and the head gasket around the cylinders. It looks like someone took the head and slid it across a concrete driveway. I know the finish on a head should have some texture to it for the gasket to bite into, but it appears to me that yours may have too rough a surface. We'll see what other say.

But I think robert has a good suggestion. Get it refinished by a competent machine shop. Can you measure the depth of the wear bars - see how much it's been machined already?

Tom

 

[RootesRooter]

Do you have a photo of the other side of the head gasket?

 

[Alpine 1789]

The gasket was stuck to the block and it took some effort to get if off. So diagnosis may be tricky from looking at the other side. Still, here are two photos:

And, for what its worth, here is the engine after pulling the gasket off:

And, unfortunately, here is a shot of the wear bar. Not much left on this one, I am afraid.



Now, as far as the head goes, Jim Ellis built if for me about 7 years ago. I don't remember whether or not he did anything special with the valves, but I know he was fond of using larger valves in his own engines. He did apply quite a few tricks to this head, as it has the Vizard modification and a three angle grind on the valves. He hasn't been on the board much, but I will see if I can connect with him and have him weigh in on the photos. But one important thing about the head: it doesn't look like it at the moment, but it only has 11,000 miles on it.

 

[RootesRooter]

My best guess is that it might have been seeping into the outside water passage around #4.

Looks like some sort some of shellac was used on the gasket that may have facilitated some corrosion.

I've never seen that kind of 'impression' left in a head gasket from what should be two perfectly flat surfaces.

I'd make sure the deck was flat. Then, after the shop hopefully takes only another ten thou off the head, install the next gasket "dry."

 

[Alpine 1789]

Thanks guys. So, my first job is going to be cleaning up the block. Any recommendations on the best way to do that without getting crap into the engine?

 

[Ken Ellis]

Party balloons? I'm not sure that, with the cylinder volume roughly equal, a round balloon could fit without popping out the top. But if they did, it would seal pretty well, and allow you to carefully vacuum out any debris by pulling back the balloon and using a small crevice tool. I'm not sure rubber plugs, etc. would let you do that. Or, a small bead of sealing wax around the edge of the piston... or just a sealing wax plug, would capture and protect the piston, but not much of the bore.

I'm sure Snap-On has a tool for this, though.

Can your machine shop lend you a nice straightedge?

 

[RootesRacer]

how about plumbers putty?

Its like play-dough, oil based and can conform to the piston/cylinder interface.

 

[65beam]

head

leave #1 and #4 at the top, stuff clean shop rags in the other two cylinders and clean away. also cover the lifter side of the engine to keep junk from going into the sump. then carefully pull the shop rags out, use a shop vac to remove anything left.

 

[Alpine 1789]

Thanks guys. All good ideas; I will probably use a combination of all suggestions. How about the water jackets? I know gunk in there isn't as worrying, but I'd still like to keep stuff out. Any thoughts on those?

As for what to use to clean it, I don't think I want to spray gasket cleaner on it, least it get on other parts I don't want 'cleaned'. That stuff just seems to just be paint remover to me, so I am thinking about brushing on a gel paint remover. Perhaps one of the citrus based ones like Citrustrip. Any thoughts on that?

 

[dennis talbert]

Happy dogs owner

I'm also in head hell. I've found that my head/block is missing the little Alum. helmet water diverter. Any ideas how I can get hold of one of these.

 

[Tom H]

SS has them listed in their catalog. See "Water Jet for Cyl head"

That's Sunbeam Specialties:
http://rootes.com/catalogindex.html

Tom

 

[bernd_st]

coming back to your original problem :

Never ever use one of those dark grey asbestos headgaskets like the one which was in there before. They are notoriously leak prone and usually blow up after a few thousand miles. On top the material always bakes to the head and block surfaces and is terrible to remove. Better to use a copper compound gasket but there is also cheap stuff around. Ideally try to get a NOS Payen copper gasket and don´t forget to retorque after 500 Miles. Then you will be trouble free...

 

[Ken Ellis]

I'm wondering if a brass wire wheel on a Dremel would be safe? Not a recommendation, but a question.

Plumbers use balled-up Wonderbread to create a small dam when soldering existing pipes. That might work well for your water passages. Whatever you miss on removal won't stand a chance with the water pump and hot water. No wholegrains here, though!

Plumbers putty is a good thought. Or playdough. Recipies are online.

 

[Alpine 1789]

coming back to your original problem :

Never ever use one of those dark grey asbestos headgaskets like the one which was in there before. They are notoriously leak prone and usually blow up after a few thousand miles. On top the material always bakes to the head and block surfaces and is terrible to remove. Better to use a copper compound gasket but there is also cheap stuff around. Ideally try to get a NOS Payen copper gasket and don´t forget to retorque after 500 Miles. Then you will be trouble free...

I am really surprised I used the black one, as I remember researching this on this site before choosing which gasket to use. But, I just looked again and the recommendations to go with the copper sandwich are pretty clear, so I just screwed up. I checked my box of gaskets and I have three of the copper ones. Unfortunately, two of them look like they have been kicking around too long, as the copper side is fairly rippled, probably from being bent over the years. I will probably go with the one that looks perfect, although I cannot guarantee that it is one of the Payen ones.

Speaking of gaskets, has anyone checked out this guys stuff: http://cgi.ebay.com/ALPINE-RAPIER-1...arts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item1c1d3fbbaf. He says they are high quality and has good feedback, but I'd feel better if I knew someone who had successfully used one.

I'm wondering if a brass wire wheel on a Dremel would be safe? Not a recommendation, but a question.

Plumbers use balled-up Wonderbread to create a small dam when soldering existing pipes. That might work well for your water passages. Whatever you miss on removal won't stand a chance with the water pump and hot water. No wholegrains here, though!

Plumbers putty is a good thought. Or playdough. Recipies are online.

I just remembered that I had a bag of small corks from a project 25 years ago and even knew right where those corks were. Unfortunately, they only fit a couple of the two dozen holes in the head. The rest, save one, are too small; the last is too big. Still, that might be a good way to go. I will stop by the local Ace Hardware tomorrow and see if they have any smaller ones.

 

[Jim E]

Think I would have the water passages welded up on this one before putting it back on they look a little big to me. Just need someone who is good welding aluminium.

 

[Alpine 1789]

Hmmm. I will have to do some digging to find a machine shop for the head. The one I used for the engine doesn't do heads and I don't know another one around here. I was also hoping to avoid having to take this apart, but that may be inevitable.

 

[RootesRooter]

Where are you located? Maybe someone on the list knows of a machine shop near you.

Hmmm. I will have to do some digging to find a machine shop for the head. The one I used for the engine doesn't do heads and I don't know another one around here. I was also hoping to avoid having to take this apart, but that may be inevitable.

 

[Alpine 1789]

St. Louis. I am sure there are competent machine shops around here and I could start asking around, but how important is Alpine experience? I only know of one other running Alpine in the area, so there isn't likely to be anyone who has worked on one before.