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Strengthen the crankshaft
- Thread starter Kristian Jonsson
- Start date
alpine_64
Donation Time
Jan the race fuel was 110..no nitro.
Mark races in a historic category that allows bigger carbs, crank fired ignition and free internals with up to 0.90 over iirc ( not that he is that far overbore)
I think 150bhp flyweel is achievable in alpine race motors if very well built... And a few have done it.
Steve smith in the UK used to race a sV with 150...iirc steve ran an engineering buisness specialising in balancing and machining for the space industry
Mark races in a historic category that allows bigger carbs, crank fired ignition and free internals with up to 0.90 over iirc ( not that he is that far overbore)
I think 150bhp flyweel is achievable in alpine race motors if very well built... And a few have done it.
Steve smith in the UK used to race a sV with 150...iirc steve ran an engineering buisness specialising in balancing and machining for the space industry
Gordon Holsinger
Diamond Level Sponsor
I think 1.6 per cubic in is a bit optimistic! The old rule of thumb I grew up with was it has to breathe it has to exhaust the gasses in other words cam carb and exhaust!
alpine_64
Donation Time
Suck, squish, bang, blow...
I struggle to see a legal 1592 breaking into 175hp territory... 150 flywheel... Sure.. With a very soecial motor... I recall in the early 2000s an alpine that ran in the modsports uk/ usa challenge that had a billet crank 1725 waste spark ignition and 45dcoes and a straight cut 5 speed dog 'box that was very quick...
Gordon Holsinger
Diamond Level Sponsor
Anything is possible with enough money, or how fast you want to go is how much money you have!
RootesRacer
Donation Time
depends on the series engine. 3 mains are strong forged steel cranks, but buzz them out an they will still break (lack of bearing support).
5 mains are nodular iron, not as strong as steel but it takes the revs better becuase it has 5 mains.
Wish someone would make us a bunch of 4130 billet 5 main cranks...
husky drvr
Platinum Level Sponsor
May I suggest an order of billet crank bearing caps to go with that order, sir. Makes a tasty side dish and rounds out the meal.
I was only dreaming, sorry.
Gordon Holsinger
Diamond Level Sponsor
It would be nice!
alpine_64
Donation Time
The question is.. Rootes archive have the drawings.. But if making new...may as well knife edge the counterweight as well... And do the journals to big end sizes common to jap or other hogh performance rods ...
Im in a decent lcation to get them done....maybe i sould enquire ...but.... I sort of need a 3 main... 1725 is illegal for my class
Come on, Michael. I can see a whole new future for you manufacturing kits for hot rodding 1725 engines. We had a V6 Jose. How about an "1850 Michael"?
husky drvr
Platinum Level Sponsor
Michael,
About to open Pandora's box?
I'll help.Light steel and aluminum flywheels, better torsional dampers and attachment design, cams to utilize increased displacement, maybe new head and manifolds designs, provide for a modern electronic ignition, and maybe a new bell housing to accommodate a modern OD trans?
One improvement always leads to somebody wanting the next level improvement.
I think as a first step on this path, a search for an aftermarket crank forging - I4 and maybe V8 before twisting - that could be machined to 1725+ specs might allow a suitable start point. An existing forging with redefined machining would certainly allow a better start price point.
If it's possible to install a Volvo head on a Ford block, maybe this is possible, also.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...=tvVY9z7-l0U&usg=AOvVaw07zVy6W_ZVLXRYbDOnTce0
Last edited:
alpine_64
Donation Time
Michael,
About to open Pandora's box?
Light steel and aluminum flywheels, better torsional dampers and attachment design, cams to utilize increased displacement, maybe new head and manifolds designs, provide for a modern electronic ignition, and maybe a new bell housing to accommodate a modern OD trans?
One improvement always leads to somebody wanting the next level improvement.
I think as a first step on this path, a search for an aftermarket crank forging - I4 and maybe V8 before twisting - that could be machined to 1725+ specs might allow a suitable start point. An existing forging with redefined machining would certainly allow a better start price point.
If it's possible to install a Volvo head on a Ford block, maybe this is possible, also.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwirgYa9pJ7yAhVTLs0KHQ6rCuQQwqsBegQIBxAB&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvVY9z7-l0U&usg=AOvVaw07zVy6W_ZVLXRYbDOnTce0
Hey husky,
Actually some of the parts you mention are already produced to a very high standard.
TTV already do very high end billet aluminum flywheels for early and late cars and high performance light weight pressure plates and clutches.
A USA company makes several versions on the balancers uprated steel and 2 versions of lightweight billet alumimum.
As for parts to make.. A really good one would be aluminum ( or even steel) high flow oil pumps.... A real weak point in evena stock rootes motor.
As for heads... Isuzu made a really good one for balette GT which was a metric version of the rootea motor... But super rare..
In mid 2000s a guy in sydney was looking at adapting a hybusa motorbike head for an alpine... Not sure how far he got.. He passed away late that decade.. His car was a 2120 stroker 1725 on 2x45 dcoe and really flew.
You are absolutely correct! I don't know what I was thinking. "2 Litre King" has a nice ring to it.
Maybe its just me, but it seems that good Alpine heads are hard to find, maybe time for an aftermarket head with stock external appearance,, but everything else modernized. I also continue to wonder why no one has produced long Tiger steering arms, which when matched with MG Midget rack would alleviate the Ackerman problem and produced stock steering ratio.
Bill
Bill
jdoclogan
Platinum Level Sponsor
Michael, I worked with TTV in 2020 and they weren't making an Aluminum flywheel. They do make a lightened steel flywheel (14 lbs lighter than stock) and I had them engineer and make a light weight pressure plate. This thread pretty much covers lightened flywheel/pressure plate components http://forum.sunbeamalpine.org/index.php?threads/aluminum-flywheel.24809
alpine_64
Donation Time
Bill, the r&d on a head and manufacture would be way more than a crankshaft... The crank could either just be made from the stock drawings and produced with knife edging done or offset mains without much issue..
But a stock head would be a big project... Perhaps with 3d printing it could be more achievable.. You could model the stock head from the factory drawings (or more likely model the holbay head.. Or a stock head but with a vizard chamber already.. ) and have them made...
If you wanted a more modern design.. Or at minimum a head where you sorted the exhaust passages to flow insetad of their horrible hard turn from the chamber.. you'd want some serious experts involved to sort the design.. The advantage of 3d printing is you can do 1 off prototypes at no more cost than a batch run... So could improve each head ... But the process and time ( along with finding an appropriate engineer) would likely be cost prohibitive
RootesRacer
Donation Time
I dont seem much value in billet caps. Pinning the cast iron caps would be a good idea though.May I suggest an order of billet crank bearing caps to go with that order, sir. Makes a tasty side dish and rounds out the meal.
husky drvr
Platinum Level Sponsor
No problem, I thought I recalled someone else mention machined caps and thought the reasoning for them to be sound. Though, it might have only been for the three center caps - 2, 3, and 4.
I wasn't actually faulting the balancer or the reproductions, it's the very minimal engagement of the balancer to the alignment key. In so many cases, this has led to damaged hub keyways and cracked hubs. Yes, I'm aware that damage is, in many cases, likely due to "less than exemplary" repair work.
3D printing and lost foam casting should mean the actual casting is the least of related problems. Every decision is a compromise and every change leads to at least one more change. Fixing the port turn is relatively simple by adding height between the combustion chamber top and bottom of exhaust port runner. What other changes would have to be made to accommodate this simple fix? Even after adjusting the exhaust port turn, the other major exhaust issue hasn't been touched. The combustion chamber's pocketed and shrouded exhaust valve. Maybe a rotated combustion chamber with smaller, angled and canted valves could be part of the answer. But now nothing lines up.
Pandora's box.
alpine_64
Donation Time
3D printing and lost foam casting should mean the actual casting is the least of related problems. Every decision is a compromise and every change leads to at least one more change. Fixing the port turn is relatively simple by adding height between the combustion chamber top and bottom of exhaust port runner. What other changes would have to be made to accommodate this simple fix? Even after adjusting the exhaust port turn, the other major exhaust issue hasn't been touched. The combustion chamber's pocketed and shrouded exhaust valve. Maybe a rotated combustion chamber with smaller, angled and canted valves could be part of the answer. But now nothing lines up.
Pandora's box.
The chamber shape i dont think is such an issue if you keep the valves vertical... You could choose the holbay shape or the vizard shape and you instantly have deshrouded the plug and improved the flame path.
Spacing the valve stems a little further apart would allow for some bigger valves without have the seats touch.
The exhaust path would be the worry for me...it will move closer to the intake ports.. Place the headers closer to intake manifold and carbs and potentially change the thermal dissipation in the head...
Bugger it... Lets go cross flow and hemi chambers...