Scared Straight E-Bay Questions

[P. Scofield]

This guy stayed pretty calm through some of these ballsy comments. I would have just told them to pound sand! True, this paint job is sloppy but if this bothers you, don't bid! Is this a typical Tiger owners attitude? When will our cars get to this level!! I can't wait!

http://contact.ebay.com/ebaymotors/...=130185151116&ShowASQAlways=1&frm=284&guest=1

Jan, you got to admit, this sounds like you!

Q: Is this your first Tiger? and do you you know which parts need to be painted on the car and which don't? There is a lot of work to do still on the paint job, there are parts that need to be taken off to be painted then the body part needs to be painted, it looks like a green horn painted it, did you supervise this?

A: I understand that a few items were sprayed that shouldn't have been, however, seeing as I have been in no rush to restore the car, it didn't really bother me. I do appreciate it may raise a level of concern with prospective buyers..... but I am not at all worried if it makes you personally happy or not. Taking off engine mounts and painting them black or taking off other items and cleaning and re-installing / painting bodywork etc. may be a big thing for some people, but it is not for me. In my opinion, the quality of the paint job is pretty good.... therefore, just because the process is not to your liking doesn't make it unprofessional. That is, assuming that is what you meant green horn to mean. Thanks for your interest.

How about this one, like the guy didn't already know, "thanks for the help buddy!"

Q: It appears as if the lower front valance was not straightened during the body/prep work..Please verify.

A: Your are right and it was annoying. It occurred whilst transporting the prep'd car to the spray shop by the car transport company. I did not see the problem myself until after the car was sprayed. Thankfully, the location means that it will not take too much effort to straighten & spray. It was the only minor item on my list of things to do before the final exterior paint touch ups were to be completed. But, my experience is that some other little issues could arise up after the engine, wiring, doors, trunk, hood, windshield & soft top installations are completed. That is one reason why I used modern day paint technology. Thanks for your interest.

 

[serIIalpine]

You realize this guy parted out this car on ebay before selling the actual car.

Eric
'62 SerII

 

[V6 JOSE]

The only Alpine that got that kind of money, was the one that had meticulous documentation, and was very well done. I have yet to see, even well done Alpines go for more than about $12,000. You may love your Alpine to where you wouldn't part with it for less than mid twenties money, but I would guess you will be keeping it a long time.

Everyone wants to believe their Alpine is worth a ton, but you don't realize that if the do go up to those prices, you won't be able to own one. Ask yourself, would I pay mid twenties for a nice Alpine? I would venture that the real answer would be no, although almost everyone would say yes. if asked.

The other point is that I would bet that the Alpine that sold so high, will never see the road again, because it has become an invsetment, a museum piece, if you will. The real pleasure of owning these cars, is driving them.

This topic has brought a lot of controversy before, but I still stahnd on my opinion, despite others wishes to the opposite.

Jose

 

[alpine_64]

Actually i think its kind of funny to use that SV alpine as a base point, In some ways it could come in for the same kind of flack as this tiger. Not that the work wasnt of the highest standard, but the guy went to so much trouble, photographing things all laid out with boxes next to the WSM, yet did quite a few things in terms of paint finish and helper springs etc that are not stock.. i think if you go to the trouble he did you would normally go factory fresh. Either way an amazing car.. but seems a bit odd that it was not done to full factory spec.

As for Tigers, well they continue to rise in value (though i have seen 2 recently in the USA that i consider an absolute steal.. these are cars with all the hard to find bits there and restored to good levels and fall between 26-34K... in my opinion damn cheap given the amount of work in them and the value of the hard to find Tiger bits.. had they been around when i was looking for a tiger they'd be on their way here and i'd have saved some $.. still no complaints.. i love my car.

As for Alpine values.. they really depend on the car.. i think the USA looks at them in a different way to the rest of us.. you have almost all the production of the model there.. and heaps of parts cars.. in the UK and AU they comand higher values due to their rarity, i think Alpine values will increase but they will never be more than 5% less than an equivialnt MG or TR

just my .02

 

[jmthehermit]

The questions posed by some prospective bidders are a good reason they should just go out and buy a new Corvette. They could then drive it off the lot and pull into the first car show they come to. Then they would be in their element with a factory correct 100 point vehicle, BS ing passers by with it's virtues via the owners manual while waiting for their winning ribbons. All the while basking in their anal retentive glory!! Jeff

 

[alpine_64]

The questions posed by some prospective bidders are a good reason they should just go out and buy a new Corvette. They could then drive it off the lot and pull into the first car show they come to. Then they would be in their element with a factory correct 100 point vehicle, BS ing passers by with it's virtues via the owners manual while waiting for their winning ribbons. All the while basking in their anal retentive glory!! Jeff

Jeff,

I think the Tiger guys are an interesting bunch in terms of original/non original. There seem to be very few "stock" tigers yet they do jump all over people for some quite minor changes (like the guy having a go over the colours of the motor mounts, painting other parts etc) yet 4 wheel discs, 4bbl carbs, 302's etc are generally accepted.. and encouraged by some. I have said this a bunch of times.. i REALLY APPRECIATE stock cars, and think they are important as they shopw a true representation of the car as it was built.. but for me i will always want a few mods here and there.. though period correct, they still change the car.. so congratulations to anyone who keeps a stock car.. i would love a factory correct tiger. 260 2bbl, steel wheels and all.. maybe the next one (gosh help me) will be. I think anyone prepared to restore a sunbeam, and to a high standard should be encouraged.. hec restoring them in general.. and its nto about the end value.. its about the hair loss in between!

 

[Jim E]

Anyone have a link to this auction? did I miss it above?

we are all whacky one way or another....

 

[P. Scofield]

The only Alpine that got that kind of money, was the one that had meticulous documentation, and was very well done. I have yet to see, even well done Alpines go for more than about $12,000. You may love your Alpine to where you wouldn't part with it for less than mid twenties money, but I would guess you will be keeping it a long time. Jose

Interesting. I'm not bragging, but I think mine was done a better than the mentioned car. I just don't have a photo essay to go with it. But I strongly feel if I put my car up for sale it would go for over 20K, without hesitation. I'm just not ready to part with it. Heck, I need to drive it a little first!

 

[P. Scofield]

Anyone have a link to this auction? did I miss it above?

we are all whacky one way or another....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130185151116

 

[Jim E]

What did that ebay pine go for was it 23k? Paul never seen anything but pictures of your car and believe it is better than the ebay car from what I see and from, well just how you are it would be a top notch job. I would very much like to see what it would bring on the ebay market.

 

[Jim E]

Thanks for the link. Looks like they just did a hone and re-ring on the engine... wonder if I should ask... looks like $10k of tiger to me as it sits

 

[serIIalpine]

Unfortunately the bulk of the Alpines on the road these days are in a pretty sorry state compared to most Tigers. Where Tigers get $8000 paint jobs and no expense spared mechanical rebuilds most Alpines suffer cheapo paint jobs and restorations more appropriate for an AMC Gremlin (no offense gremlin fans)

As an example the seafoam green, white interior V6 conversion that sold for $8k on ebay a few weeks ago would have sold for at least double if it didn't have the same color sceme as a late seventies ski boat.

Little if anything on the car was original and it sold for what it was worth: A V6 conversion that needed a bare metal respray and a new interior. Do both these things and your in the mid to high twenties.

That is unless of course you paint it with a roller and boat paint (as someone on this list has done).

And nothing against being frugal and creative. My car has a high dollar paint job because I know how to paint a car myself and because I have all of the appropriate tools for work I can do it my self for a lot less than I can afford to pay anyone else.

I edited my previous comment because I felt it was a little off topic and I don't want to insult anyone but in all fairness we, as a group, have to admit that we are the reason our cars don't sell for more money.

A lot of alpines are restored on the cheap because we don't want to put money into a car we won't see when/if we sell it and looking at prices on Hemmings or worse yet on ebay leads to a inaccurate idea of what most of our cars our worth.

Let's face it $22000 for a near flawless, tasteful and accurate restoration of a sixties english sports car that was one of only 250 cars ever built is a steal of staggering proportions and I hope we all know that.

I have gone on several occasions with friends that were interested in buying an Alpine to check out these prospective cars and ALL of them were absolute crap! Crappy paint, crappy interior, rust, weird mechanical "upgrades" and owners that put the "F" in FPO.

We, the members of this owners group, unfortunately do not represent the "typical" Alpine owner. We know a lot about our cars, restore/maintain them as best as we are able and we pay the price for a general public that doesn't know any better and thinks the Tiger is the one to have.

Eric

'62 SerII

 

[64beam]

I think the Tiger guys are an interesting bunch in terms of original/non original. There seem to be very few "stock" tigers yet they do jump all over people for some quite minor changes (like the guy having a go over the colours of the motor mounts, painting other parts etc) yet 4 wheel discs, 4bbl carbs, 302's etc are generally accepted.. and encouraged by some. I have said this a bunch of times.. i REALLY APPRECIATE stock cars, and think they are important as they shopw a true representation of the car as it was built.. but for me i will always want a few mods here and there.. though period correct, they still change the car.. so congratulations to anyone who keeps a stock car.. i would love a factory correct tiger. 260 2bbl, steel wheels and all.. maybe the next one (gosh help me) will be. I think anyone prepared to restore a sunbeam, and to a high standard should be encouraged.. hec restoring them in general.. and its nto about the end value.. its about the hair loss in between!

Hi Michael,

I agree with your comments regarding stock cars and I think everyone likes to see a meticulous restoration of our beloved Sunbeam whatever the model. You made me smile when you mentioned the factory correct car, because you would only end up tinkering with it . I can't talk either, I would love to tinker with our Tiger, but Dad loved it the way it is so I will leave it for now.

Regards, Robin.

 

[V6 JOSE]

The green Alpine that just sold, had several things about it that kept it from selling for more. The first one, is that it has an automatic. This particular car, was converted about fifteen to twenty years ago. It had a Tiger rear end, with pretty high gear ratio in it, which didn't let it perform to what it should have. It looked good in pictures, but I would have loved to see it in person, to be able to judge it's true condition.

About six years ago, one of my customers sold his V6 Alpine for $9,000. This Alpine was flawlessly done. He had been asking $11,000 for it. He tried to get more, because he had a ton in it, but the buyers just wouldn't go higher.

About a year ago, there was a yellow Alpine, with a 2.6 V6, with a T5 five speed transmission in it. It was a beautiful car. The owner spared no expense on restoring the body and paint. I don't know what the guy had in it dollar wise, but it sold for just $16.000.

Another of my customers sold his Very, Very nice V6 Alpine for $20,000, because of how nice it was, but he had over $25,000 in it. He had put disc brakes on the back, along with many other upgrades. It sounded like it had a V8 in it. It was a rocket too. I would have been proud to have owned it and so would have many others.

This is the highest price that I have seen a V6 Alpine go for. If anyone put that much money into a stock Alpine, they probably could get about the same money. You can rarely get what you invested into the car, out of it.

I'll tell you one thing; I would rather see a somewhat worn Alpine, that is still on the road, being used avery day, than to see one that sits in a heated garage, and only comes out for parades and rare sunny days. If you compare other sports cars, (MG's, TR's and such), you will see the same level of condition as the Alpines you mentioned. Some guys don't have a lot of money to buy an $8,000 paint job. They put a $1,500 paint job on it and use the car, which to me, makes more sense. If I were to judge cars at a Sunbeam meet. I would give bonus points for rock chips in the paint, that's the way I am.

You are rignt in saying that we Alpine enthusiasts are responsible for the low prices. Not because we don't have a multi thousand dollar paint job on our cars, but because we won't pay more for them. The buyer is ultimately the one who decides what they sell for. I believe we will continue to see these kinds of prices on our Alpines, as long as we ourselves wouldn't pay more for them.

Jose

 

[pdq67]

Another way of saying that any car is worth what someone is willing to pay for it on any given day.

"The following definition of "fair market value" is found in the United States Supreme Court decision in the Cartwright case:

The fair market value is the price at which the property would change hands between a willing buyer and a willing seller, neither being under any compulsion to buy or to sell and both having reasonable knowledge of relevant facts.United States v. Cartwright, 411 U. S. 546, 93 S. Ct. 1713, 1716-17, 36 L. Ed. 2d 528, 73-1 U.S. Tax Cas. (CCH) ¶ 12,926 (1973) (quoting from U.S. Treasury" regulations relating to Federal estate taxes, at 26 C.F.R. sec. 20.2031-1(b)).

 

[serIIalpine]

Jose

I don't think you and I are to far off as I am a firm believer in using any classic car in the manner in which it was intended. Driving!

And while I am sure a V6 conversion makes an Alpine a much faster and some might say enjoyable car than a stock alpine it will never be a "stock" alpine.

It is a car that has been modified so that it might compete with the alpines big sister the Tiger. In having been so modified there is an admitted inferiority of the Alpine to the Tiger.

A lot of Alpine owners want their car to be as desirable as a Tiger and one "acceptable" way to bridge this gap is to do one of your conversions but unfortunately it will never be a Tiger so now you have a car that has been irreversibly modified and no longer has the desirability of a "Stock" Alpine.

V6 have a very loyal following and I'm sure for good reason as they are a lot quicker than stock and maintain the road manners of the Alpine.

If you ask any qualified race or rally driver they will all tell you that the 289 cobra is a much better driving car than a 427. The 427 is faster but doesn't handle as well as the 289 and is a lot more work to drive well on anything but a drag strip.

I bought my series 2 for $600 from a guy in Palmdale CA. It needed an engine rebuild, a full body restoration, an entirely new front end and every single rubber or plastic component on the car needed to be replaced and the interior looked like it had sat in the hot desert sun for 10 years because it had. I figure I over paid by $500. Since then I have stripped the car to bare metal and resprayed it using Glasurit paint. I rebuilt the motor using the best components SS had available at the time and I am still in the process of redoing the interior which will be finished in leather and wool.

I have no Idea where I am in regards to the amount of money I've spent or how much time I've invested but I'd rather set it on fire than take less than 25k for it. And even if some one offered me that much I would have hard time parting with it.

I think what I'm having a hard time saying is that the other alpine owners. The guys who buy one not knowing what a great little sports car they are are happy to lay out a few grand to have something they can drive on the weekends and if need be they have an Earl Scheib paint job thrown on for $350 are artificially dragging down the resale price of otherwise well restored and maintained classic car.

The people that buy an Alpine on ebay for $3500 don't know anything about the type of Alpine we all know and love. They just want a cheaper and presumably more impressive car than the BMW they can't afford.

Anyway that's my point and I'm sticking to it.

Eric

'62 SerII

 

[sunbeam74]

Hmmm.... that Tiger looked pretty good... for the money but then it didn't meet reserve.

Anyway, RPM in Vermont has a nice honest Alpine for sale.
http://www.rpmvt.com/sunbeam.html

Steve

 

[V6 JOSE]

Eric,

I didn't build my first Alpine to be a Tiger. I originally built it to be a drag car. Wasn't expecting it to be anything else, since most drag cars aren't good on a road course. I got a pleasant surprise to find out that it actually cornered like a true sports car.

I have had several customers that wanted a V6 Alpine, thinking it would be a cheaper Tiger. I have talked several out of doing the conversion, because if they really wanted a Tiger, they should go get a Tiger. Many people have the same impression that you have, and that is that guys that have done the conversion, are really closet Tiger lovers. Nothing is farther from the truth. The V6 Alpine shares nothing with the Tiger, but the same body lines. The two are totally different animals. The only reason I have mentioned Tigers, while talking about the V6 converted Alpine, is to give the guys a reference point that they could understand.

The V6 converted Alpine is less attractive to purists, becuase they think it is the bastardization of a perfect sports car. The only thing about going completely stock, is that almost no one agrees with what is pure stock. I have seen several heated discussions on this board, about whether this is the correct color, or maybe some other color is. To me, that is of no importance. Does it run? Is it used almost every day? Is it enjoyed by it's owner? Those are the questions that interest me.

To show you that I have never intended for the V6 Alpine to be a Tiger beater, is the fact that I have never gone looking for a Tiger to race. The ones that I have raced, picked on me. The V6 Alpine I built and owned, was built specifically to beat Porsches, which it did very well. I would love to own a Tiger, but not for it's speed.

All of this extraneous conversation reall has very little to do with the original topic, which was why the Alpine doesn't, and never will, sell for Tiger prices. I would never pay that, and I am pretty sure that none of the other guys would either. We can't change the facts. I will leave you with your story, so stick to it, but don't try to sell your Alpine.

Jose

 

[lgurley]

what is it worth?

I bought my 1st alpine in 1984 for $800.00 Due to a wife and 4 kids I could never afford to do anything to it. After it spun a bearing I dragged it from state to state and kept looking for someone who would work on the repairs that I couldn't do myself.
Finally I started my own business and never had time to do anything except rinse off the dust once in a while. Then I got chronic bronchitis and messed up my back and so I couldn't do much except supervise, but the last 10 years were good to me financially.
I will probably never tell anyone how much I paid to have a professional take it to bare metal and replace or repair every single nut or bolt.
If I paid too much or someone doesn't like the 2007 corvette silver paint or the custom genuine leather interior with air conditioning and a state of the art MP3 player with am fm and cd changer it don't matter 'cause it ain't for sale at any price. When I am too old to enjoy it the next owner can take off the expensive paint and leather and underneath he will find never rusted never cut never patched virgin factory sheet metal.

Larry

 

[pdq67]

From the Windsor Small Block Forum.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/119417/thread/1197830424/BritishV8++sports+cars

The comment about how he should have modified an Alpine instead gave me a chuckle. If the writer had bothered to read the text, he would have seen that the owner has been at it for 36 years and has created the ultimate sleeper. I am certain he could care less what the car is worth as he blasts down the quarter mile.