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Recommended total advance for 2.8?

RootesRacer

Donation Time
Thanks for the informtion. I also thought that the vacuum advance was a transitional advance and wasn't really added into the total.

It does get added to the total, but only when you are a light loads and very small throttle angles.

Picture being at 3500 RPM, and cruising at light throttle in a low gear.
The engine makes good vacuum being its not loaded, the vacuum ports get a decent vacuum signal due to the high vacuum and due to the passages being uncovered by the throttle plates.

At high manifold vacuum, the cylinder pressures are low and the engine needs more timing to make peak cyl pressure at the correct crank angle since the flame front is slow.
This means light throttle timing can be 40+ degrees, which is needed for best fuel economy and engine response.
 

Mod_Squad!

Bronze Level Sponsor
Hmmmm. O.K. Here's the status report. I set the crank to TDC and verified that it was on the compression stroke. I then oriented the distributor to how it appears in the manual and reran all the wires appropriately. I advanced the distributor a guestimate amount to start it up and then rotated until I got to 12 deg BTDC. Since there isn't anything else I can really do as far as the rest of the distributor is concerned I took it out for a short spin. When it gets to about the 3,000 rpm range there is something weird going on. I can't really tell if it's being overloaded, over/under advanced or what. So, thinking that maybe I'm not getting enough advance I forward it a few more degrees and drive it again. It kinda sounds/feels worse. One more add of advance to about 16 degrees initial advance just to be sure and, yeah, that seems to be worse yet. I decide that maybe I'm going about it all wrong. Maybe I need to retard it a bit, thinking that maybe it's over-advancing at the 3,000 point. Started out with about 10 deg initial advance and tried it out. Not so great. 8 wasn't any better. Back to the garage and had the wife work the throttle while I observed the timing light. With the initial timing set at 12 deg BTDC and the mechanical advance listed as having 24 degrees at 3,000 rpm's and maybe a little bit coming from the vacuum advance I should be in the 36 to 40 ish BTDC range at WOT. Well, I seem to be at about 33-34 degrees BTDC and it isn't passing that so maybe my new distributor is only hitting about 21 degrees advance and the vacuum is adding nothing. In driving it, if I feathered it up to 3,000 it was OK. Anything beyond the 3,000 or so and it was crapping out. Also, when I was watching the pulley while I had the wife accelerate I noticed that when she began to push on the gas, there was a drop of about 3 or 4 degrees in the timing. The timing would drop from 12 deg BTDC to 9 deg BTDC and then start to climb until we maxed out at the 33 deg mark....
Any ideas?
Thanks again for all the help,
Bryan
:)
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
I have to ask, are you reading what I write?

When you give it a bit of gas, you are loosing manifold vacuum and the throttle vacuum ports are loosing signal, which is why you loose timing.

As I have said at least 3 times in this thread, you have to disconnect the vacuum advance to determine what the mech advance function is.

Disconnect and plug your vacuum advance to the dizzy.
Hook up your timing light, adjust the timing to 32 degrees at your max advance RPM, then verify that revving the engine higher doesnt go beyond the 32 degrees you set it to.

Let it return to idle and record the timing.

Subtract the two and thats the mechanical advance amount.

Most engines in this configuration put out 24 to 26 mechanical degrees advance, so for a functional 26 degree mech adv dizzy, AND 32 degrees TOTAL timing, you would want a base timing of 6 degrees.

Setting the base timing too high can result in idle surge and hard starting as the starter is fighting combustion pressure prior to TDC.
 

V6 JOSE

Donation Time
Factory recommended static timing is 12 degrees BTC. If you don't want more than say 36 degrees total,, you will need to limit the mechanical advance to 24 degrees. if you run less than 12 degrees static advance, you will lose perfromance and economy around town.

Jose
 

Mod_Squad!

Bronze Level Sponsor
Ha. Yes, I am reading what you are writing. I appreciate the help very much. With regards to losing timing when I push on the gas, I'm still not sure that I understand the function of the vacuum advance really. Bear with my ignorance a little longer please.... If my car is sitting, idling, at 12 deg BTDC and I give it a little gas, the vacuum 'advance' reacts by retarding the timing momentarily to 9 deg BTDC? Then as I give it a little more gas, I assume that the rpm's cause the weights in the distributor to move outwards and mechanically advance the timing. I guess I'm just a bit confused as to when, exactly, the vacuum advance comes into play. I thought that for light acceleration it was used and it wouldn't make the base timing momentarily retard below it's initial setting.
I can see how one might think I wasn't listening In my last posting I forgot to mention that the vacuum advance WAS disconnected and the line to the carb was plugged while I was setting up the timing and checking it.
I think that the base timing has been off (too high) for years as it's always been a drag to start and now it's starting immediately. Anyway... I was actually trying to do the math as you mentioned. I just forgot tat the vac advance couldn't be contributing when because I had it unplugged.
So, without sounding like I'm not listening, I did record that the max advance I seemed to be hitting was 33 BTDC. That means that if I had my initial timing set at 12 deg BTDC then the mech advance is likely giving me 21 degrees of advance.
I'm going to hit it all again tomorrow at lunch time.
I am faily dense at times but I'm definitely trying to listen. I'm sure it's like trying to talk a chimp down in the space shuttle.
Thanks again for all the help, I really appreciate it.
Bryan
I have to ask, are you reading what I write?

When you give it a bit of gas, you are loosing manifold vacuum and the throttle vacuum ports are loosing signal, which is why you loose timing.

As I have said at least 3 times in this thread, you have to disconnect the vacuum advance to determine what the mech advance function is.

Disconnect and plug your vacuum advance to the dizzy.
Hook up your timing light, adjust the timing to 32 degrees at your max advance RPM, then verify that revving the engine higher doesnt go beyond the 32 degrees you set it to.

Let it return to idle and record the timing.

Subtract the two and thats the mechanical advance amount.

Most engines in this configuration put out 24 to 26 mechanical degrees advance, so for a functional 26 degree mech adv dizzy, AND 32 degrees TOTAL timing, you would want a base timing of 6 degrees.

Setting the base timing too high can result in idle surge and hard starting as the starter is fighting combustion pressure prior to TDC.
 

Mod_Squad!

Bronze Level Sponsor
Hi Jose,
That's what I'm ooking at. I've set the static (base) timing to 12 deg BTDC and the disributor 'says' it's dialed in for 24 degrees of advance at 3,000 rpms. So...I 'should' be hitting 36 deg advance at 3,000 rpm's , correct? With the vacuum advance disconnected too. As far as I can tell, I'm hitting 33 deg advance max. So, if I subtract the 12 degrees initial advance, that tells me that the distributor is only giving m 21 degrees of mechanical advance, correct?
To be honest, I have NO idea what I want for the total, ideal timing. I do know that I haven't found it yet :). I'll look at it again tomorrow and start the process again I guess. Like I dsaid though, it sure starts instantly now so that's a good thing. I just want it to accelerate now :).
Thanks for the tips,
Bryan
:)
Factory recommended static timing is 12 degrees BTC. If you don't want more than say 36 degrees total,, you will need to limit the mechanical advance to 24 degrees. if you run less than 12 degrees static advance, you will lose perfromance and economy around town.

Jose
 

sunbby

Past SAOCA President
Donation Time
Are you sure you're not having a problem with some other part of the ignition system. Maybe the coil is bad and is failing under load? Is there just a distributor or is there some type of ignition module? I thought I remembered people running a Duraspark on the 2.8's? During Invasion 8 people were convinced the timing gears had broken or something on a V6 Alpine. Turned out to be a duff Duraspark module.
 

V6 JOSE

Donation Time
Hi Bryan,

I can't tell you exactly how much total advance you should ultimately have, but a good dyno operator should be able to find what your engine requirements are and at your altitude. It should be about 36 degrees, but it may require a little different number for your particular application.

Jose
 

Mod_Squad!

Bronze Level Sponsor
I'm not sure of anything actually. It is a Duraspark system. It very well could be that the ignition module is at fault or the coil is going bad. I did replace the coil last year to rule that out. Maybe I'll replace the module and see if that helps. I was hoping that it was the distributor.
Thanks for the tips.
I'll keep looking,
Bryan
Are you sure you're not having a problem with some other part of the ignition system. Maybe the coil is bad and is failing under load? Is there just a distributor or is there some type of ignition module? I thought I remembered people running a Duraspark on the 2.8's? During Invasion 8 people were convinced the timing gears had broken or something on a V6 Alpine. Turned out to be a duff Duraspark module.
 

Mod_Squad!

Bronze Level Sponsor
Hey Jose,
I was going through this same poor running a few years back, and the concensus back then was carb or distributor. I went through one dyno appointment and we ended up dialing in the timing by ear, on the street, running it down the block, adjust, repeat. Essentially the same as what I was doing by myself yesterday except more expensive. At that point it was suggested that I replace the carb (third one) and maybe make the power valve modification. I did both. Went for another dyno appointment and ended up back on the street doing the same ear tuning but paying for dyno time. I had hoped that the 'experts' at the dyno place, with all that high tech equipment and with what they charge, would be able to give me some kind of prognosis but they were not able to. I would take it to a dyno shop again but the last two times haven't impressed me. Maybe there's a good tech working there now....
Thanks for the tip though,
Bryan
Hi Bryan,

I can't tell you exactly how much total advance you should ultimately have, but a good dyno operator should be able to find what your engine requirements are and at your altitude. It should be about 36 degrees, but it may require a little different number for your particular application.

Jose
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
Just some thoughts on the 2.8 fords timing.

When I had a capri 2.8, the compression ratio was specified at 8/1.
It had a 2bbl 2150 or 2700VV carb, neither of which offered stellar breathing.
Factory put the max timing at around 36 degrees, though the later 2.8 distributors used a dual diaphragm vacuum adv/retard function, which MUST be properly plumbed or else you have some really odd transition timing.

Now that application was specified at around 105BHP from the factory, I believe it becuase my 1725 alpine could leave it standing still.
This puts the volumetric efficiency probably around 70% at peak HP.

Based on that, any of you folks building higher compression motors and bigger carbs and more aggressive cams are going to see a rise in volumetric efficiency (with subsequent increase in torque and HP).

My experience (as well as common sense) has been that with a given engine, an increase in volumetric efficiency and or compression ratio increases the cylinder pressures, which speeds the ignition flame front, and requires reduced ignition timing to compensate.

Therefore based on this, I would think that 36 degrees is too much timing for anything other than an engine stock in all respects.

I've never built a high compression 2.8, so I cant say for sure what the correct timing figures are, only that I think 36 is too much, and I would start on the conservative side and dyno tune the timing (again with a stethoscope or electronic ears) to find where torque increase stops, and where knock begins.
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Bryan, how much plug gap are you running? I think it is significant you are having issues near what should be your maximum torque. That makes me think the issue is spark quality or delivery, not timing.

I reserve the right to be wrong, but I don't see how 2 or 3 degrees timing can be your issue, especially as you have pretty well covered the actual timing in the trouble rpm. That exercise should have determined the sweet spot and you would now be figuring out the proper distributor advance curve.

Bill
 

Mod_Squad!

Bronze Level Sponsor
Well, one of the early mechanics who scoped the car before I went to the dyno runs and/or replaced the dist, carb and coil was saying that the distributor was over advancing. I know absolutely nothing about distributors (in case nobody has surmised that by now :) ). When I took the last distributor apart I did notice that one of the springs seemed to be shot. That could have been the problem with that one. Anyhooo....I'm going to try backing off a bit more on the timing and see what that does to me. Couldn't hurt I imagine.
Thanks again to all for all the input.
I really appreciate it,
Bryan
 

Mod_Squad!

Bronze Level Sponsor
Thanks Bill. I'll double check my gap. I just put in new plugs. I was running some cool Bosch quad-tipped platinums or Titaniums or somesuch and they looked OK when I pulled them. I had already bought some new Bosch, not quad-tipped or awesome, and I just put those in. I'm guessing I may want to run a tighter gap incase I'm having voltage problems?
Thanks again,
Bryan:)
 

V6 JOSE

Donation Time
Hi Jared,

The compression on the 2.8 V6 with the heads milled .030", is about 8.5 to 1, which shouldn't cause any detonation with regular gas. I have run 12 degrees advanced static timing, with 24 degrees distributor advance and never had detonation problem with the .030 head mill job. I don't recommend retarding the static timing, because it lowers response of the engine. If Bryan has a problem, it has to be that the distributor not advancing properly, not with initial timing.

Jose
 

Mod_Squad!

Bronze Level Sponsor
O.K. I just double checked everything again....I'm dialed in at 12 deg BTDC statically, with the vac advance disconnected. I then dialed in the timing light to 36 deg BTDC and revved the engine up to about 3500 rpm's and I was only making it up to about 33-34 deg BTDC. I'm fairly certain that that means I'm only getting 21-22 degrees mechanical advance out of the new distributor. It may be fine but it may not be. I guess it could be coming in too early or too late, etc. I hooked to vac advance back up to see if I got any more timing out of it and I didn't. I'll drive it to work, then to NAPA for a new brain. If there is a variety of Duraspark modules for the 2.8, is there a preferred unit? Is there a better coil available?
Thanks again for all the input!
Bryan
:)
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Thanks Bill. I'll double check my gap. I just put in new plugs. I was running some cool Bosch quad-tipped platinums or Titaniums or somesuch and they looked OK when I pulled them. I had already bought some new Bosch, not quad-tipped or awesome, and I just put those in. I'm guessing I may want to run a tighter gap incase I'm having voltage problems?
Thanks again,
Bryan:)
If I remember correctly, you were running plugs opened up to .045". I'd try .030" and if it runs okay, open them up at least to stock or until the problem returns.

Bill
 

Mod_Squad!

Bronze Level Sponsor
Hi Bill,
Yes the plugs are opened up to .044. I'll back them down to .030 and see what transpires. I just drove the car back to the office and I tried accelerating under a few different conditions with the same results. It craps out at around 3,000 rpms whether I punch it or ease into it. Once it gets to that rpm range it runs like crap. Now, I didn't notice it too much when I was checking the timing, only the road. I realized that I've trained my ear to shift around 2800 rpms for the last few years. I'm wondering now if it's the carb.... Anyhooo....I'll get another brain, another coil, regap the plugsand double check everything again and see if it makes any difference. Then I'll start looking at the carb.... I'll also see if I can get in to the dyno shop. Ugh...
Thanks again to everyone for all the direction.
Bryan
:eek:
 

sunbby

Past SAOCA President
Donation Time
I am willing to bet it is an ignition issue and not timing. There is no way it can run ok until a certain rpm then run terribly if the timing is just off some. Even if the timing is fairly off it will just lose power (and get hot) or knock, I doubt it would misfire that badly.

I certainly suspect the Duraspark, but before shelling out for a new one, make sure you have a good ground for the Duraspark, engine and ignition system. That could screw it up too.

Can you describe the symptoms a little more? When you near 3000 rpm does it run rough and misfire or is it still smooth and just lacking power?
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Bryan, I understand exactly where you are coming from. You think you see some improvement, but wonder if its your imagination and a desperate desire to fix the damn thing taking control of your senses. It all gets fuzzy in your mind and you get to the point there seems to be no reality.

Good luck.

Bill
 
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