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Pros cons or do's and don'ts

Jim in PA

Jim in PA

Donation Time
Hello again all.
I bought a spare oil filter mount a while back to have an extra oil pressure relief valve and to have an item in my hand to be able to have new oil cooler hoses made and match the fittings...
A couple of days ago I dropped the OPR valve off at a local machine shop to have them do the Adjustable OPR valve mod I found here on this forum.
I have a 66 SV 1725 with 106,000+ miles on it. It runs well but obviously it's getting near rebuild time. Cold engine oil pressure starts at 40 lbs and goes to 5-10lbs when hot.(175F)5lbs at hot idle makes me nervous.
I'd like to have higher oil pressure for now, until I can afford an engine rebuild. This weekend I'm doing an oil change with 20-50 and a chaser of break-in lube additive(ZDDP) Currently running 10W-30 with ZDDP chaser.
My question is...am I dreaming? Am I setting myself up for disaster?
What are the pro's and con's? mostly...what are the con's?
Before I dropped the OPR off I measured the pop-off pressure at 56 oz. (the point where the piston lifted from it's seat in the OPR valve) I intend to adjust the reworked valve to 58oz. or so before installing in a warmed up engine. Then adjust to have 20 lbs at idle or 10lbs for every 1000 rpm...whatever seems good. I just don't want to overstress the oil pump drive and cause further issues.
Once the engine has been rebuilt it may still be a nice thing to have adjustable oil pressure.
I value all feedback and have done well to this point by following advice offered here.
Thanks in advance.
Jim
 
Jim in PA

Jim in PA

Donation Time
Sam,
I don't have the OPR valve back yet. He said it could be done for around $65.00. You know how that goes...
The OPR valve seemed to be brass piston and the sleeve/ tube looked steel. I really don't know because I didn't think to scrub it up to see what it is made of. The end of the tube with the threads is most likely steel because where it's swaged to retain the sleeve, piston, spring etc... is gray. The piston inside the assembly looked to be brassy in color when I scuffed the end of the piston by pushing the push/ pull gauge against it.
Good, bad or indifferent I'll report back on the results.
Jim
 
Barry

Barry

Diamond Level Sponsor
Jim,

The oil pressure relief valve controls the MAXIMUM oil pressure; unless it is leaking, it has no effect on hot idle oil pressure.

Hot idle oil pressure is a function of the oil pump output, oil viscosity and temperature and how much the engine "leaks" internally. By leaks, I mean the crankshaft main bearings, rod bearings, camshaft bearings, upper end oiling, etc. As an engine wears, the oil pump output typically drops and the internal leakage increases. The result is less oil pressure.

It is OK for the oil pressure relief valve to open when the engine is cold, but opening under hot conditions will foam and shear the oil and both are very bad. Using a higher viscosity oil will increase pressure, but the maximum hot pressure should be less than the oil pressure relief valve opening point.

Barry
 
Jim in PA

Jim in PA

Donation Time
Barry,
Thanks. Great info. The OPR valve mod should yeild no improvement in oil pressure under the normal operating conditions...crap! So, it's an over pressure relief valve not an oil pressure regulator valve.
I wasn't sure if I was wasting my time and money or not. I know the worn engine is what it is and I can't expect too much from it.
The heavier viscosity oil should help a bit but still not a rebuild in a can...
I'll give it a go and see what's what.
Thank you very much for your feedback.
Jim
 
Barry

Barry

Diamond Level Sponsor
Jim,

Since you have been using 10W-30 oil, you might consider using one of the 0W-40 or 15W-50 full synthetic oils. They exhibit less viscosity change from cold to hot than dino-oil and you might get better hot idle oil pressure.

Again, the key is to keep the maximum hot oil pressure below the point at which the OPR valve opens.

Barry
 
Jim E

Jim E

Donation Time
I am not a big fan of the adjustable OPRV modification for normal street driving, hear it is needed in a race application where the engine is pretty hot and run for a while at high RPM. For normal street use do not see the need and ... from personal exsperence I did the mod on a perfectly good OPRV that worked just fine and after a short time the darn thing started to stick in either the open or closed position as it saw fit.
 
sammaw@bellsout

sammaw@bellsout

Silver Level Sponsor
It seems like the mod could give an easier way to clean, hone, deburr, or otherwise fix sticking if it did occur. I know I destroyed what was likely was an ok valve by trying to screw it out of the oil filter base.
 
R

RootesRacer

Donation Time
A functional non-sticking OPR is what you want for a street motor, not an adjustable.

As said already a modified OPR will not improve high temp idle low oil pressure, this occurs due to internal clearances or worn oil pump.

The modified OPR is helpful for performance related cases where higher pressure allows better bearing cooling (since the higher pressure causes more oil to leak past the bearing clearances), which protects bearings from spinning in the saddles due to overheating and seizure.
 
65beam

65beam

Donation Time
pros/cons

i have several that were done by a long time beam owner on the east coast. when he does them ,i understand that he sets them to give roughly 15% more pressure when hot. most of the ones i have in my cars kick up 60 to 70 lbs cold idle, 30 to 35 hot idle, run around 50 to 60 at road speed.bearing clearances are pretty tight on all of my motors.all of my pumps are tight also.
 
Nickodell

Nickodell

Donation Time
This so-called mod has been around for many years. I think Tiger Tom was the earliest (or one of the) exponents, and on the TE/AE forum he detailed the procedure.

IMHO, except for racing, pushing the maximum oil pressure up is an excercise in futility, and poses serious risks. As has been well explained earlier, it will do nothing for an engine showing low hot OP. It's the equivalent of Ponce de Leon searching for the fountain of youth. Messing with the OPR valve is not the Viagra of engine mods.

The danger is that excessive OP when cold poses risks of blowing seals. Someone in the SOACA forum a couple of years ago related how he had upped the OPR setting to 60 or 65psi and on starting the engine, unknown to him, blew out a seal and left a trail of the contents of the oil pan down the road until, luckily, he heard knocking, noticed a zero OP and switched off just in time.

Don't do it.
 
65beam

65beam

Donation Time
pros/cons

if done properly and set the way i mentioned, along with good bearings and a good pump it has never hurt one of my cars . TT did my first valve many years ago and is still in use on my series 4. 15% increase on a motor running 50lbs is only 7.5 lbs. as far as seals go 75 lbs will not blow a seal. and as far as i know, i have never found any rubber seals on my cranks. it takes 200 to 250 lbs of pressure to blow the gasket on the oil filter,so a modified valve won't blow the filter. the filters that fit our spin on filters should have an internal valve also.what that does is that it opens when the pressure in the filter gets excessive. if a motor has excessive bearing clearances, only a rebuild will help. the adjustable valve won't help if the bearings are worn.
 
R

RootesRacer

Donation Time
Hey guys, sorry to tell you but there are no seals to blow in these rootes motors.

There are no front or real main seals to blow, not that could even happen since they are not under oil pressure.

There are no gaskets except the oil filter base + cooler block which are even under oil pressure, and they will not fail at much higher pressures.

The thing much more likely to fail is the oil pressure gauge, which has a de-bourdon tube inside and can rupture under execive pressure.
 
Jim in PA

Jim in PA

Donation Time
reat feedback

Thank you all once again for getting me straightened out.
I knew there would be good info here.
I figured I was dreaming if I thought the adj. OPR would give relief to low pressure on my "experienced" engine. I am well aware I NEED to have tighter tolerances in the mill to have better oil pressure and less rattles and knocks. (Oh well...some day soon.)
I'll continue with sincere prayers before driving. Is there a patron saint for Sunbeam Alpines?
I'll have to find something else to monkey with.
The only thing good to come, maybe, is a clean and polished works inside the modified OPR valve.
There's been much discussion here on sticking OPR valves that made it sound as if they were actuating during normal operation hence adjusting to higher tension would yeild higher oil pressure realative to whatever condition the engine may be. Maybe an old worn OPR would be more inclined to open at lower pressure and contribute to low oil pressure...
The mention of using synth. oil sounds interesting because I believe I've read here that we were to "never" use synthetic oils because the seals would swell or deteriorate...true or false?
I believe the standard was use whatever "Racing" oil we liked because racing oils contain the ZDDP that modern conventional "dino" motor oils or synthetics lack, since ZDDP messes up catalytic converters. I've been using ZDDP break in additive in my engine.
Thank you all, again, for your great feedback.
Jim
 
Jim E

Jim E

Donation Time
Not sure this is true but have always heard a leaky motor will leak worse with synthtic oil.
 
B

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
In order to even out the oil pressure in an old , probably leaky engine, I think your idea to use 20w50 is probably the best. You can use Diesel motor oil as it is still uses ZDDP in its formulation.

Bill
 
John W

John W

Bronze Level Sponsor
Try the silver can of "Restore." I have no idea what's in it, but it makes a worn engine run much better. "Z-Max" is also a great product. Carrol Shelby himself advertises Z-max. I've used both and they're excellent products. "Restore" is great if you just want to get the most miles you can out of a tired engine before refreshing it.
 
Nickodell

Nickodell

Donation Time
OK, OK. So there are no seals except the one in the oil filter base. I told you of one experience related by a forum member who tinkered with the OPR valve setting. Here's mine, although not with 'beams. The first happened to my wife's MGB-GT, after I changed the oil and filter.

The next morning we were both getting ready for work, and wifey jumped into the MG and started the engine. She had a habit I could never break her from, of revving the engine on startup. As I followed her down our 1/4 mile drive, I noticed a trail of oil on the concrete, blew the horn and had her stop. Part of the filter gasket could be seen protruding outside the can.

The other time was with my 73 Firebird, after the same oil/filter change. This time I started the engine while I still had the hood up, and a squirt of oil shot out between the filter and housing. Same thing.

The logical answer is that I didn't fit the filters correctly. No. As I have done countless times with dozens of previous engines, I always ensure that the filter mount face is clean, smear some oil on the gasket and tightened it as specified in the owner's manual (until contact, then x turns).

This argument, however, is becomeing circular. I will maintain that the engine designers probably knew what they were doing to set the OPRV at around 40psi, while others will maintain that more is always better. In any event, it's all academic. It started with the suggestion that upping the blowoff setting will cure low OP with hot oil and low revs, which, of course, it won't.
 
skywords

skywords

Donation Time
IMHO the best thing you can do for your car is run straight weight (Shell) Rotalla 40W. I have always been a fan of Shell oils. For what it's worth I have been driving my car daily in temps of 100 to 115 F for years.

Don't tell anybody here but I have not even had the valve cover off :D It roars like the day I got it. I change oil when I think of it, I run 75 psi hot.
 
Jim in PA

Jim in PA

Donation Time
Many thanks

Many thanks , again, to all that replied.
I've changed the oil yesterday. Valvoline 20W-50 with a Comp Cams engine break in lube chaser...for the ZDDP additive and new oil filter. Was using 10W30.
The oil pressure is slightly higher at start up and when hot.
Cold start was near 40 psi and 5 psi at idle when hot...now it's slightly higher than 40 psi cold and nearly 10lbs or so when hot at idle. No tellin' if the experienced gauge is reading accurately... all things being relative.
The use of ZMax and Restore sound good but I may try that once I have the $$$ in hand for engine rebuild. I just sold my boat so I'm on the way to $$ for the engine, trans, clutch, driveshaft and rear rebuild. Maybe a yard sale...?
I really need to get the valves adjusted...better oil pressure? and sync the carbs, install the Pertronics and set timing. Colortune will be last.
I started to do these but was sidetracked again and again.
Jim
 
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