No starting condition

[volvoguys]

"Father-In-Law said it ran as is when he put it in the garage, He's semi retired so I told him id help him get her going again". This what you stated in your very first post.

So, unless someone has messed with the car or your F-I-L is mistaken then there's no need to actually try to sort a wiring issue. The problem has to be something very simple. Broken, loose wire or connector?

Suggestion: Have you tried to start the car in the dark to see if you have an arc where it shouldn't be. Say, the capacitor is arcing to the distributor body?

 

[Tom H]

Volvoguys, He says he gets constant power at both coil terminals even when cranking. That tells us that there is no "points action", no on /off of the coil. So there will be no high voltage, no spark, no arcing, nothing. He's got to find out why there are no points closing or no connection to the
points or no ground for the points.

Also note that even though the F-I-L said it ran when parked, Brandon has already replaced just about every component and may have undone something in the process.

Biggest issue I have is how is it that there is power to the coil even with the ignition OFF. With that situation, if he ever does get the points working, I don't know how he'll turn the car off.

Tom

 

[Brandonse24]

Tom going by the diagram and the picture I took the other day I know somethings not right, the white wire on the bottom right on the panel is the wire to the coil, the other wire goes to an electric fuel pump
no wire goes to the ignition in that spot. If the diagram is right with the placement it puts the wire on the #4 spot.

 

[PETER CLAYTON]

Have you carried out the procedure that I set out earlier?

 

[Ken Ellis]

I think this car is 'half-converted' to negative ground. That could be why things are messed up. Stuff that should obviously work doesn't. Things that should be unpowered are live all the time.

This can be sorted, though. Just choose a troubleshooting path, follow it methodically, take notes for use in your posts, and take a break and study when things aren't clear. Oh, and verify that electric fuel pump is low, low pressure. Like 1-4 psi or so. High-pressure ones are more common, but carbs can't usually deal with them properly. If there aren't two wires coming out of the pump, and if it's not a 'thumper'-type pump, it may be running backwards if you're really positive ground.

Hang in there!

 

[Brandonse24]

Ok so far, with the points closed power flows backward to the coil, with the coil wire disconnected from fuse panel. Open points and no power to coil.

Polarity check-Power to #3 & #4 of the fuse panel (grounded to battery), 1&2 show no power.
With System grounded to engine (+ ground) show negative polarity to #1 & 2 of the fuse panel 3 &4 show nothing. I have no idea what that means but thought someone else might.

Ignition switch- # 1 blade has the Air/heater connected other blade not used.
#2 Blade- one wire to the # 3 fuse block terminal, other wire goes to warning light.
#3 Blade wire goes to blade on the side of starter solenoid switch.
#4 blades have the 2 thick brown w/ blue stripe wires. (haven't traced end location yet)
Wire to coil from fuse panel is connected on the #3 blades.
when connected to #2 fuse terminal no power to coil ignition off or on. When connected to #3 constant power ignition off or on.
(when using the above wire on Ignition switch configuration)

Right off the bat I can tell the ignition switch does not match the factory diagram but I was trying to see how it managed to run in that condition. I believe as it sat in the garage for over 5 years it got tinkered with by him and his friends while working on the other cars.

Edit: when ignition is wired the way the diagram is there is constant voltage to coil key off and on.

 

[Tom H]

Brandon, Lots of confusing info in your post, but some helpful. Let me comment:

First of all please confirm that the blade numbers you list are the tiny molded numbers you see on the back of the switch and not just based on the position you see.

Line by line here are my thoughts:

"Ok so far, with the points closed power flows backward to the coil, with the coil wire disconnected from fuse panel. Open points and no power to coil"

I don't understand "Power flows backward" . And there is no way that anything flows "with the coil wire disconnected from the fuse panel"

" Polarity check-Power to #3 & #4 of the fuse panel (grounded to battery), 1&2 show no power.
With System grounded to engine (+ ground) show negative polarity to #1 & 2 of the fuse panel 3 &4 show nothing. I have no idea what that means but thought someone else might."

I do not understand what you are describing here at all.

"Ignition switch- # 1 blade has the Air/heater connected other blade not used."

This is the wire that is suppose to be connected to #4 blade to allow heater (and Radio) to operate with switch in "Accessory" position

"#2 Blade- one wire to the # 3 fuse block terminal, other wire goes to warning light"

This is the wire that should power the coil and is correctly connected to blade #2. And it is correctly connected to Term #3 of the fuse block. THAT point on the fuse box is the same point that the wire to the coil resistor should be connected. That's how power is supposed to get to the coil.

"#3 Blade wire goes to blade on the side of starter solenoid switch".

Yep, that's correct. That the terminal that gets power with switch key turned to the far rights "Start" position.

"#4 blades have the 2 thick brown w/ blue stripe wires. (haven't traced end location yet)"

The brown and brown /blue wires are essentially connected to the battery, No switch or fuse between a brown wire and the battery. This is the wire that brings power to the ignition switch. It should be connected to #1 blades


"Wire to coil from fuse panel is connected on the #3 blades."

That's correct. and you said above that the wire from the ignition switch goes to that same terminal. But in previous posts you had said that you could not see any way for power to get from the switch to the coil. THIS is the path .


"when connected to #2 fuse terminal no power to coil ignition off or on. When connected to #3 constant power ignition off or on.
(when using the above wire on Ignition switch configuration)"

When WHAT is connected to #2 fuse terminal?

"Right off the bat I can tell the ignition switch does not match the factory diagram but I was trying to see how it managed to run in that condition. I believe as it sat in the garage for over 5 years it got tinkered with by him and his friends while working on the other cars."

Are you sure your are reading the terminal #s correctly? They are tiny numbers molded in

" Edit: when ignition is wired the way the diagram is there is constant voltage to coil key off and on."

Do you fully understand the 4 key positions :
1) Far left is Accessory position
2) Next right is OFF
3) Next right is ON, coil should be powered
4) Far right is START (coil powered and also solenoid)

Good luck.

Tom

 

[Brandonse24]

Yes Tom all the Numbers I'm using are based on the numbers on the switch or on the fuse panel.

With the points closed, I'm reading voltage from the distributor to the coil. with the points open there is no voltage to the coil. (with wire from fuse panel to coil disconnected) *Note since its positive ground the motor shows constant voltage so I'm assuming the power is flowing through motor/ distributor through the wires back to the coil.

As far as the Polarity goes with it grounded to - ground on battery it shows no +power to the number 1 and 2.
with it grounded to the motor + ground it its showing a negative charge on 1 & 2. what I'm assuming it means is that something is wrong with 1 and 2 on the panel as it is acting as an actual - ground and not a power relay.

yes the terminals are correct, I've checked and rechecked to make sure its set properly. when I'm testing for power to the coil the key is not in the ignition. I'm removing the key to make sure I have it in the off position (this key is not worn down so cannot be removed from any other position.

When the wires are to factory on the key switch and the coil the car shows constant voltage to the Coil.

Edit: Question.
If the engine is + ground and shows power and power flows from the fuse panel to the coil how does the system ground itself out?

 

[Tom H]

Brandon, you are getting confused about ground and positive ground. Ground is just a very large "wire" that connects the everything in the car to one of the terminals of the battery. In older cars the positive terminal is connected to the ground path. In later cars the negative terminal is connected to the chassis or ground.

If you take a simple battery and connect each end to a lamp (not an LED) it will not matter which end of the battery is connected to which terminal on the lamp. You could set the little battery on a steel plate, and put one of the lamp terminals on the plate. You can then think of that plate as Ground. then connect the other battery terminal to the other lamp terminal and the lamp lights. Power flows from the battery to the lamp. If you set this up with the neg end of the battery on the plate, you might call this a Neg ground system. In this arrangement electrical convention would say that current flowed OUT of the top of the battery and into the lamp and the current return goes thru the plate or "ground" . By the way, a physics guy would note that actually the electrons flowed out of the bottom of the battery and thru the Ground plate into the lamps and returned to the Positive side of the battery. But again, any electrical engineer would say current flowed out of the top of the battery and was returned via the ground plate. But both the physics guy and the engineer would say the power flowed from the Battery to the lamp. NEITHER would say the Power flowed this way or that . VOLTS is like pressure in a water system, it causes the CURRENT to flow whenever there is a path. Power is a result a current flowing.

Now if we turned the battery upside down, with the positive end on the(ground plate, we would call that a Positive Ground system. The Power all still comes from the battery. Only difference is the battery is "upside down" from conventional systems. Whenever I am thinking about a positive ground system I usually revert to thinking like a Physics guy, and consider the flow of electrons instead of "current" . It's really no different except that any voltage measurements I make will be Neg polarity. If I'm using a digital multimeter I will always have a neg sign o0n the display. If I am using an analog meter without any autopolarity circuit in it, I will just swap leads, connecting the red led to the Chassis Ground and using the black lead to measure voltages at various points. But if I am using just a test lamp to trace power it doesn't even matter, I connect the ground lead of the test light to the chassis ground and probe and test just as I would on a Neg earth car. I am looking for where do I have voltage and where do I not have voltage. Where does the test light go and where is it off. The other end of my test light is on the chassis, any convention place , bolt, bracket, or whatever is connected to the chassis. If you use a test lamp, you test the electrical just the same whether Pos or Neg earth. You don't even need to know which kind of ground you have.

I will try to read your post later to understand what you are seeing.

You have not confirmed that the switch in the car has the 4 key positions I noted.

Tom

 

[Brandonse24]

Tom before I start I just want to say thanks for helping me I know its hard trying to teach an old dog new tricks.

Your right the +/- thing is what's hanging me up.
I Figured out why 1 and 2 show negative resistance on the fuse panel. its a lead the connects to the starter/ battery -. right there in the diagram and it took me a day to figure it out.
That being said I'm going to chase more wires around, there has to be a reason the coil wire is staying powered when the key is off.

I don't know I'm tempted to switch to negative ground just so my simple mind can grasp what I'm doing wrong.

Edit: After talking to my F.I.L he said he replaced the control box and isn't sure if all the connections are in the proper place. could say the 2 yellow wires being reversed cause the coil to stay active constantly? I plan on chasing those wires when its not raining to make sure they are properly placed, going to check the starter solenoid as well as there is an unused spade I see on it.

 

[Brandonse24]

I pulled the voltage regulator off and checked to make sure the wires match the diagram, I did the same with the starter solenoid and both appear to be wired correctly.

I did find 2 wires to #4 on the fuse panel that are supplying constant voltage. I think this is where the power to the coil is coming from with the key off. One wire is factory and one is one someone put in there. I plan on chasing them down to see if they are grounded to the frame.

I'm attaching a picture hoping you can tell me what it is, I haven't checked the power on the wires to it but it looks like it needs replaced.

 

[Tom H]

My guess is that this is the horn relay. I see from the Series I wiring diagram that Series I had a horn relay.

I'll be on the road for the next several days and may not have a chance to comment further for a while, but others may be helpful. But in general you need to be more precise in describing what you find.

Tom

 

[Brandonse24]

Update:
I converted it to negative ground just to make it easy on me and I'm glad I did. The wiring to the gauges were completely wrong, at some point in the cars life someone had hooked up a radio and other things in there I found probably 10ft of wiring that was only 1/2 hooked up to things open and live wires in the harness.
I cleaned out the mess of wires, re did all the gauges and like magic the ignition switch works properly and the Coil works again. My only guess is some of those live wires must have been connected in the harness somehow and come apart since they weren't wrapped just twisted together.

I drained the gas (thumper fuel pump) got all but about a cup, put in some fresh gas it popped afew times trying to burn the last of the bad gas so I decided to let it sit as it was already 10 last night when I got that far.

I didn't reinstall the ammeter because He said it never worked and I didn't see any wires that would work for it. I might try to hook it up with new wires to test, or just install it just so there isn't an open hole in the dash.

 

[beamdream]

I would be seriously concerned about ammeter wires that are not hooked up, if they are lying loose behind the dash you have a great potential for a fire if they arc out somewhere.

In all of this I suggest you engage somebody, professionally, who has an understanding of automotive wiring before you have a mishap.

 

[Brandonse24]

Oh I'm quite sure there is no wire for the gauge in the car. I stripped back 90% of the harness and checked every wire except the taillights following the wiring diagram. Made a mess and had to rewrap the harness but I wanted to be sure. Everything works properly now except the horns and I think my relay for them is bad.

 

[Ken Ellis]

Sounds like progress. Do you have the original generator, or is it an alternator? And definitely don't want alternator connectors flopping around, unless the other end is disconnected too.

Edit after your post above...
Carry on then. Horn issue could be adjustment screw instead of relay. Searchable on this site...