No starting condition

[Brandonse24]

Ok I'm so lost I don't know where to begin. 1960 Series 1 it hasn't run for at least 5 years. Father-In-Law said it ran as is when he put it in the garage, He's semi retired so I told him id help him get her going again.
No matter what I do I cant get spark, I replaced the coil, points, condenser , cap, rotor button (not defective kind floating around) and plug wires.
No matter what variation I try nothing works. I've read where wires are supposed to come from but its not the same on this car, maybe a later model?
I have a wire coming from the fuse panel to the resistor and then to the coil, then to the distributor.
I don't know if the wires under the cap are in the wrong order or if I'm missing something.
I went through this with a 65 Corvair and had it running in less than an hour I don't know if the fact that its still positive ground or what. I've been working on cars for about 20 years and this is the first one to stump me like this. Maybe the car just hates me.

 

[phyrman]

You need 3 things for an engine to run
Fire (spark)
Fuel
Compression.... OK i did this once...set up valves too tight so they would not seat.....set your valves loose, make sure there are no air leaks
Check spark...take a plug out and hold it against the engine and have someone turn the engine over to see if the plug does spark
If all that fails, have a couple stiff cocktails!


Bruce

 

[Brandonse24]

compression is ok, I've set up a bottle feed for now but no matter what I do she just will not spark. As for the drinks, ive had afew as I've been fighting with her for over a week to get a spark.

 

[Acollin]

I would first be certain that the father in law drove the car in and no one has done anything to it since. If this is true the process should be fairly simple --- unless he drove it in in fire!!!

You have left us with many questions but my first check would be the battery as you have mentioned little beyond " no spark".

Any sounds-- any lights-- anything working that requires electricity?

The forum will solve your problem!!!!

 

[Ken Ellis]

Maybe generator w/voltage regulator instead of alternator, (which might need to be 'flashed'?). Note that I've never had a generator-equipped car, so just throwing it out there as a possibility.

Are the points switching? 12V at the coil? Good clean ground on the engine block? Good ground at battery? HV output from the coil? Plugs spark on direct coil output, without using distributor? If oil pump has been out, and reinstalled on the 'wrong tooth', distributor alignment may not match reference pictures. It'll still work, but you'll have to pay attention to firing order details.

I didn't start or drive my car for about 4 years, and it took about 15 minutes to get it started. Only precaution was gas treatment. So they do 'sit well' if needed.

The advantage I had was that I put it away, running, and had many years of prior care and feeding.

 

[65beam]

no start

If you changed the points there is a common mistake that many make. The wire from the condensor and the distributor lead set down over the pin for the curved arm portion of the points. the nylon or plastic piece them slips thru these two wire terminals and then install the nut. If not installed in this manner there will be no spark. you would have the coil and the condenser out of the system. I'd check this first.

 

[Brandonse24]

It has a new battery so I know that's good, all the grounds have been cleaned. I don't know if the generator is good or not, it worked when he parked it. I've got an external bottle hooked up for fuel till I clean the tank. I'm going to try hooking a spark plug directly from the coil tomorrow. I figure either I don't have the wires correctly stacked in the distributor or I'm just missing something. I'm still trying to figure out how it doesn't have a wire off the key, just from the fuse block.

 

[Toyanvil]

Your Series 1 maybe positive ground, I would check the wiring to the coil.

 

[beamdream]

Perhaps begin here, distributor cap off, ignition on, open and close the points with a small screwdriver - do you have a spark at the points ?

If not then you need to back track the wiring circuit from distributor to ignition switch - negative earth, positive earth doesn't matter at this point

In all of this we assume you have power elsewhere, lights, horn etc ??

 

[George Coleman]

If you changed the points there is a common mistake that many make. The wire from the condenser and the distributor lead set down over the pin for the curved arm portion of the points. the nylon or plastic piece them slips thru these two wire terminals and then install the nut. If not installed in this manner there will be no spark. you would have the coil and the condenser out of the system. I'd check this first.

I agree with Bob on this. I have had this problem and I did not have sufficient ground to the block as another possibility

 

[George Coleman]

Another question has this car been converted over to Neg. earth?

 

[PETER CLAYTON]

I am for this exercise assuming that you have no experience and I apologise if I am teaching my Granny to suck eggs, but this way I think I can cover everything.

1/ CHECK WIRE FROM "CB" CONNECTION ON COIL TO DISTRIBUTOR.Remove from points and test for continuity.
2/CHECK INTERNAL DISTRIBUTOR WIRE TO POINTS. Test for continuity.
3/CHECK THAT POINTS TERMINAL STUD HAS INSULATING TOP HAT WASHER .
4/ FIT SPRING/MOVABLE POINTS TO PIVOT AND STUD.
5/ FIT INTERNAL (feed)WIRE AND CONDENSER WIRE TO STUD AND INSULATE FROM
STUD WITH FIBRE WASHER.FIT NUT You may want to use a new condenser if so fit
now.
6/ SET DISTRIBUTOR CAM SO THAT POINTS ARE FULLY OPEN,AND SET TO SPEC. 025"
7/ CHECK THAT THE EARTH LEAD BETWEEN THE POINTS BASE PLATE AND THE MOVABLE ADVANCE/RETARD SECTION IS INTACT.( this can break)
8/ WITH THE IGNITION TURNED ON, TEST THE "BAT" WIRE TO COIL FOR 12 VOLTS. IF
NONE OR LOW VOLTAGE, FIND A GOOD 12 VOLT FEED AND USING A "FLY LEAD"
CONNECT LIVE TO "BAT" SIDE OF COIL. THEN SWITCH OFF/DISCONNECT.
9/ TURN ENGINE TO CLOSE POINTS.
10/ TURN ON IGNITION/RECONNECT. FLICK POINTS WITH SMALL INSULATED
SCREWDRIVER . THERE WILL BE A SPARK.
11/ SWITCH OFF ETC.
12/ FIT ROTOR ARM.
13/ FIT DISTRIBUTOR CAP CHECKING THAT THE CENTRAL BRUSH IS FITTED AND
SPRINGING (I'm assuming that the HT leads are still fitted)
14/ RECONNECT 12 VOLT FEED/TURN ON IGNITION. Turn engine over.
If the fuel is there, Tappets set, timing unaltered, the motor should at the very least show signs of life.

 

[Brandonse24]

With this car, I have no idea. Its an entirely new monster. No spark from the coils of either car, but I know the coils are good I tested both in the Corvair. no spark from the points either. I made a new test wire and ran it from the same location on the fuse block to the resistor to see if there was a short but it was the same no spark.
I guess I'm going to have to buy a digital meter for testing voltage my old meter doesn't really work.
The car is still positive earth
I honestly think someone messed with the wires it just seems wrong to me, its like a rats nest in there or maybe its the fact that I've never messed with a 1960 +ground car.
what I have is a lead comes from the fuse block, over to the resistor then out to one side of the coil then out the other to the distributor . no other wires in the system, if that right?

 

[PETER CLAYTON]

Remove the wire that feeds the resister and check with a voltmeter or test light for power when the ignition is on.Should be around 12 volts. forget about the resister for the moment and connect the wire straight to the coil to rule out the resister.
Are the coils 12 volt or are they for use with a resister? If 12 volt they won't be working well if the resister is in line.
Carry out the procedure iI posted above and you should get you spark back.

PS. Don't worry about positive or negative earth , both systems are the same it's just the direction of electron flow, which is of no importance to you at this stage.
PPS Just a silly point , but is the fuse okay?

 

[Ken Ellis]

Note that fuses can look OK, but you have to check 'em with a continuity tester, and clean the fuse and spade contacts as well. They don't always age well.

With the resistor, it likely has riveted connections from the spade terminals to the actual resistive element. These can corrode over time and not pass current. That's why Peter's recommending bypassing it. No harm in the short run, just watch that you don't leave ignition on for extended lengths of time (20 minutes) without the car running. For this testing, you'll be fine -- especially if no voltage is getting there yet (!).

The only thing a new meter will get you is you won't have to switch probes around if you get the polarity wrong. But if your meter has bad leads, then that's not helping your task...

It's always possible someone has played around in there before you, and if they had a negative-ground mindset, then it's no wonder things appear 'isolated'. Just go thru Peter's list systematically, after re-verifying battery is both good and correctly wired up, and the gremlins will be revealed in short order. These cars are tractor-like in their simplicity, so the list of possibilities is reasonably constrained. Hang tough!

 

[Tom H]

You don't need a digital meter. But tell me what are you using to test voltages? I do not see anywhere in your posts that you have verified any voltage at all anywhere. All you really need is a test light. ideally use one that looks like an awl with a lamp in the handle. Alternately you can just use a spare dash lamp in a holder and a couple wires. Then step by step:

1) With Ign off use the test lamp to check for power at the post on the coil that is not connected to the dist. ( one lead of lamp to the terminal and other lead to ground). Should be no power, no light

2) turn Ign to ON and test again. Lamp should light due to power coming from Term 2 of the ignition switch to terminal 2 of the fuse box and then from that same terminal to the coil. No fuses involved in the ignition circuit.

3) Turn ign to Start, lamp should still light while engine is cranking,

4)Assuming above tests are OK. connect test lamp to other terminal of the coil. Turn Ign to ON and lamp may light or not depending on position of the crank and dist. Then turn Ign to start and light should turn On and Off as the points open and close

5) Post here what you find.

Tom

 

[Brandonse24]

I have 2 test lights and a non functioning Analog meter (basically I can only tell there is power not how much).
I have power to the fuse panel, resistor, coil and distributor with key on and off. I have no wire from the ignition switch to the coil.
That's what I cant grasp, there is literally one wire from the fuse panel, over to the resistor into the coil then out to the distributor no other wires are at play here.
The light is constant while cranking and when not.
Yes I have been disconnecting the battery when not chasing wires or cranking as I don't trust this car enough to leave it connect and short out the coil or anything else.

 

[Ken Ellis]

Where do you live?

 

[Tom H]

Brandon,

1) You say you have power at the coil even with Ign switch off? Do I understand correctly?

2) You say " The light is constant while cranking and when not. " But you don't say which side of the coil the lamp is connected to. If it's connected to the side that is connected to the dist then that shows the points are staying open.

3) Is there a wire connected to term 2 on the ignition switch - Originally it's a white wire and it goes to term 2 on the fuse box,

4) There is a wiring diagram for Series I on this site. Here's a link. You may need top do a lot of wire tracing:

http://www.sunbeamalpine.org/downloads/wiring_diagrams/s1_diagram.pdf

Tom

 

[Brandonse24]

Ken, I'm down in FL.

Tom I checked both sides of the coil just to test it, both have power no matter what.
There is a white wire with a red stripe that goes from the ignition to the fuse block, I'll have to check tomorrow where it actually connects from and to on the CB, not sure what blade it is on.

Sorry if I'm sounding silly everyone, but this has been driving me insane and made me question everything I thought I knew about cars.