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My V-6 won't start

P

Pembertoltd

I am having trouble with the Sunbeam. The other day it started running a little rougher than it normally would. I turned off the engine and checked the plugs and 4 of them had backed out a little and were loose. They were tightened up and when I restarted the car I noticed white exhaust coming out of the drivers side pipe. I turned it off and when I restarted it again a large puff of white smoke cam out of the engine compartment. After than I tried to turn it over again and the starter just whirled. I changed the started and turned the flywheel pully and then tried to start it and it started to turn over. Afgter that when I try to start the car I just hear a click. The battery is good but it just doesn't want to turn over. We also tried to turn the crank with a wrench on the front pulley bolt and we cant get that to turn b/y hand Any/ ideas. It had been running fine but we were out of the country for 2 months and the car sat during that time.
 
V

V6 JOSE

Donation Time
Pembertoltd said:
I am having trouble with the Sunbeam. The other day it started running a little rougher than it normally would. I turned off the engine and checked the plugs and 4 of them had backed out a little and were loose. They were tightened up and when I restarted the car I noticed white exhaust coming out of the drivers side pipe. I turned it off and when I restarted it again a large puff of white smoke cam out of the engine compartment. After than I tried to turn it over again and the starter just whirled. I changed the started and turned the flywheel pully and then tried to start it and it started to turn over. Afgter that when I try to start the car I just hear a click. The battery is good but it just doesn't want to turn over. We also tried to turn the crank with a wrench on the front pulley bolt and we cant get that to turn b/y hand Any/ ideas. It had been running fine but we were out of the country for 2 months and the car sat during that time.
Click to expand...
Bret,

I hate to break it to you, but I think you blew a head gasket on the drivers side. It sounds like it has water in one cylinder, and that is why you can't turn it over. Remove the plugs on that side and read them. If you have a bad head gasket, one or more plugs will be wet or totally clean.

I can't understand why it would blow it, but pull the plugs and then try to turn it over again.

Jose :(
 
P

Pembertoltd

If that is the case Joe, does the engine have to come out or how involved is it. Email me and let me know how things are doing with you.
 
R

RootesRacer

Donation Time
Pembertoltd said:
If that is the case Joe, does the engine have to come out or how involved is it. Email me and let me know how things are doing with you.
Click to expand...


If its just a head gasket, Ive replaced a head gasket on a 2.8 with the engine in place (in a merc capri, not a sunbeam). Not the easiest operation due to all the stuff that has to be removed, but easier than pulling the engine and replacing.
 
V

V6 JOSE

Donation Time
Hi Bret,

Like Jarrid said, you can change it in situ. Since you don't have all the smog crap to disconnect and reassemble, it isn't too hard. You only have to remove the exhaust header, intake manifold, and then the head. I'm surprised that it blew, but maybe the builder didn't torque the head correctly.

I'm doing fine down here, but since the Dollar has fallen so drastically against the Colombian peso, I have lost a third of my buying power, since I got here three years ago. May have to return to the states and go back to work. I sure hope not though.

Jose :)
 
P

Pembertoltd

V6 won't start

I finally got to take the spark plugs out of the car and it still doesnt turn over. The starter just clicks and I have replaced the starter and verified that it is good. The plugs were not wet or dry but they were a little greasy and the tips were black. I am not sure as to what is going on. If you remember I had said that the car wouldn't turn over and then all of a sudden it did but it was missing badly. Next time I tried to start it and wouldn't turn over and when it finally did I saw a puff of white smoke come out of the engine compartment and then it had excessive whitish exhaust coming out of the drivers side exhaust. So what do you think. Could it be something simple like electrical or what. The car had been sitting for over 1 month while we were in Italy.
 
Ken Ellis

Ken Ellis

Donation Time
I guess it's possible that it's electrical *now*... If it is indeed a head gasket, and the cylinders were 'full' of coolant when you were trying to start it, (Not really full, but full enough to significantly alter the compression ratio on a few of them...) it's possible that the starter 'stalled out' trying to compress an incompressible fluid, and drew too much current, and overloaded the starter solenoid and caused it to fail. Does it turn over if you just bypass the solenoid? (You noted you replaced the starter with a known good one.)
I suppose it's also possible that the starter gear/ring gear interface has been disturbed, and the starter is both engaged and jammed... but that would take an awful lot of torque from the starter to make that happen, against a totally locked engine. The white smoke would have been from electrical sources, rather than from the exhaust!

I'd start with starter circuit electrical verification, and I'd pull all the plugs before trying to crank it over. If it does crank over, you might try the tailpipe 'sniff' test to see if you smell antifreeze at the exhaust pipe. Just make sure the neighbors aren't watching when you do it!

Might also substitute in a known good battery (rather than jumping it). Sitting for a month, then stressed... could cause problems.
Check battery voltage when attempting to start. If the click is accompanied by 9 v across the terminals, then it's battery, cables, solenoid, starter, ignition switch, or engine ground.

Good luck!
Ken
 
P

pdq67

Donation Time
To check to see if the starter is locked up or the engine is locked up, pull the starter, pull the plugs, put it in high gear and try to push the car. If the car rolls and the engine turns over, have an extra pair of eyes watching the plug holes to see if it pumps out coolant. While you have the starter out, look to see if there are any marks on the gears from being jammed.

I can't believe that you could have electrical smoke and not smell it. My wiring caught fire years ago and you will smell it, I promise. Also, once there is a short severe enough to produce smoke, it will probably keep on burning until the battery is disconnected.

It really sounds like a blown head gasket or cracked head to me. If it is a head gasket, it may be easier in the long run to just pull the engine. I did a Tiger head gasket once with the engine in the car and it is not fun. Also, it is almost impossible to get the rear bolts torqued properly and to install the rear-most push rods.
 
P

Pembertoltd

V6 wont start

I have an automatic in it (A4LD). What gear should I place it in to test it like you suggested. I think you are right on the electrical fire, You would definately smell it and there was no oder, I am just wondering if there could be some kind of loose connection or something that is not letting it turn over. Like I sait it just makes one click when you try to turn it over. Thanks for the help
 
D

Dan Moore

Donation Time
Try Turning it over by hand

Does it have the original timing gear ? could it have disolved broke come apart
You mentioned misfireing and rough running ?It should still turn over unless a valve was against a piston?

Dan
 
P

pdq67

Donation Time
Oops. Didn't realize it was an automatic. Either way, if it won't turn with a wrench on the crank while the starter is out of the car, I would call it seized. Unless. It could be a transmission problem but I don't know enough about automatics to know if it could lock to the point where the engine wouldn't crank. I believe that it is possible to suck trans fluid thru the motor via the modulator valve vacuum line (Kind of like the mandatory brake booster failure in all Sunbeams) and that could explain the smoke. Have you checked the trans fluid?
 
B

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Turn on the headlights, turn the key. When you hear the click, do the lights obviously dim? If not, you are not getting juice to the starter. Best to do this in a dimly lighted garage or in the evening.

Bill
 
B

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Pembertoltd said:
The lights go real dim when I hear the click as I turn the key
Click to expand...

Well, it is not a wiring issue. If you cannot hear the starter gear engage the flywheel, which would be a click "plus", I'd say the starter motor is jammed or frozen . Why would it be? I don't have a clue. But its going to have to come out.

Bill
 
Jim E

Jim E

Donation Time
I could be off base here but that is pretty much what my S3 did when I failed to put the ground wire from the trans to the frame. I was just thinking there was a chance your ground wire was loose or you did not have one in which case maybe the path to ground it was using gave up the ghost. Think on tigers the alternate ground path is the choke cable.

Pulling the starter is pretty easy on the V6 just a couple bolts and it will drop right out.... had mine in and out a couple times... or six
 
P

Pembertoltd

If the ground is bad would that cause it to miss at all. I will check the ground strap if I can remember where I mounted it though. Hopefully you are right, it would be an easy fix
 
C

Crash Bang Alpine

Donation Time
Head aches

Gentlemen:

I'm working on an Alpine with a V-6 and have been in touch with Jose and Jim E.
This might be unrelated, but important to future builders. I needed 5 different heads to be magna-fluxed before finding 2 that weren't cracked. Without magna-flux, the cracks were undetectable. The crack was between the valves on three of the five heads. Perhaps these cracked heads may have never caused a problem, but using them as they were would have been unsettling and not knowing would be worse. I have often wondered if cracked heads could be an inherent problem with the V-6 engine.

If you want to talk Alpines, you can reach me at 218-334-5893, after sunset and the 18th hole!

Regards from Minnesota,

Joe
 
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