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Modified dizzy

C

Charles Johns

Donation Time
Okay troops, this will sound strange but I have good reason, so listen before judging. I just built a POINTS DISTRIBUTOR for my Ford 2.3 I am installing in my Sunbeam. Yes, points! Let me explain. For decades I drove Hot Rods, Custom Cars and Street Rods (Hot Rods redesigned for regular daily/street use), and ALL had points ignitions. I was never stranded due to a failed module...because I did not have any modules. I could fix any ignition problem beside the highway if needed. Points, condenser, rotor and coil in the trunk and I am ready to travel anywhere without ignition worries. One can greatly improve the ignition of a points system with a hotter coil, using the best available parts, and keeping things tuned. Why not move UP to a newer-better ignition? The best answer...no improvement below 3000 RPM, which just happens to be where 90% of my driving is done. SELECT parts from BWD (cap, rotor, cond. points), 9mm wires from Ford (make as short as possible), double platinum plugs (gapped a little wider), and an ACCEL 42,000 volts coil. Timing is also a key to good ignition. You want the flame-wall to push the piston down the cylinder and not chase it or fire too soon. A PerTronix may be installed after the points system is set, or I may use a GM style module, but with vacuum-advance, swing weights timed with the right springs and total advance set at about 36 degrees, easy starts, good power and good MPG should be achieved.
 
90days

90days

Donation Time
Looking on the Brightside of using points, if we are ever attacked by an Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) your Sunbeam will be runner!
 
C

Charles Johns

Donation Time
90days, you are correct, no EMP worries. Most do not understand that is a real possibility. Even serious lightening storms can knock-out a module. Extremely rare situations do happen and sometimes just a spark at the wrong time/place can knock-out a module.
 
C

Charles Johns

Donation Time
YES, an arch of any kind can damage some modules. I graduated from the same electronics school as Rush Limbaugh...Elkins Institute in Dallas, and made a good living for 20 years. I NEVER got rich like Rush and I eventually got tired of "chasing electrons" and went back to working on mechanical things. After reading a serious study on HEI, TFI, Duraspark, MSD and other electronic ignition systems compared to points, I learned points can work as well as any of them up to a point...pun intended. Points, condensers, rotors, wires, the best caps, spark plugs and tuning can match them below 3000/3500 RPM. Notice, the first electronic ignitions still used vacuum advance on the dizzy. Why? It helps emissions and MPG around town, where most daily driving is done. Mechanical advance was perfected with swing-weights and springs, then vacuum chambers working with the natural increase/decrease of vacuum with the corresponding increase/decrease in RPM and LOAD. Think about the old Bi-Plane. It can achieve "lift" at a much lower speed and will glide to a landing if power is lost. A modern Raptor can't do that. For everyday people the modern ignition makes lots of common sense, but for a car-guy who does not mind tinkering, points are not a problem. We are not lighting-off nitro or trying to make 1000 HP, so an "adequate" spark is fine. Setting up a points system for a long dwell at the right time, a hotter-than-stock spark that can get to the plugs with as little loss as possible...is more than adequate. I built my own system using the best parts available for my 1965 Mustang SIX cylinder. I did this first with a 1940 Ford coupe and 289 engine that ran great. When guys touted their new MSD, HEI, TFI or whatever new electronic multi-mega-spark ignition, I asked WHY, you going racing? The Cobra, Corvette, Tiger and other cars from the 1960's ran strong on the racetrack with dual-points and a hot coil. A feeler gauge, multi-meter, plug wrench, vacuum-gauge and in some cases a dwell-meter, I can fix my ignition good enough to get my Beam home.
 
P

pcmenten

Donation Time
I suggest you use dual points. It’s more precise and the slower-opening points cause less arcing (burning of the points) as they open. Slower opening also means less point bounce at speed.

I worked on a Toyota 6 cyl ignition that seemed to vary the coil saturation with RPM. Smart idea; lower speed and part throttle operation can work fine on a lower coil voltage without loss of efficiency, sparing the points from excess current and making them last longer. Also a cooler running coil at lower voltages.

I think the Toyota 3RC I owned for a while used points to trigger an electronic amplifier. Low voltage and current, so it never needed service.

I think the duraspark II ignition also increases coil voltage with RPM, but I’ll have to double-check my information. Protect the module from heat and it should be rugged and reliable.
 
C

Charles Johns

Donation Time
The points ignition got a bad rap after electronic systems came on the scene, and with some justification. The comparison study between points and modules was using the same motor, just swapping ignitions. A very simple test of apples-to-apples at various RPM. To the dismay of the testing team, the points worked great up to about 4,000 RPM, then began to bounce (This was not a dual point or even Hi-Performance dizzy). With a vacuum advance hooked up it actually did better at various RPM than a non-vacuum system. So I am building a vacuum dizzy with the best available parts and a hot ACCEL coil. The electronic-module system gave a good spark all the way to 7,000 RPM, but WAS NOT better below 4000 revs. Because I was part of the times when the change to electronics in cars happened, and the major companies made the switch, all my friends assumed I would embrace it. I did, until my wife's LTD had problems, as did some other makes. It was a learning curve for Ford, GM, and all manufacturers. They began putting the module in the cab where temps were lower, and modules stopped going south. Then FI became the norm and computers were needed to control it. If they control the fuel why not the spark? BINGO, totally electronic-controlled motors...and now shifting the transmission. Do not misunderstand me, I like modern electronic ignitions, even MSD's Multiple-Spark, and GM's HEI system that has enough Hi-Voltage it can weld one's butt crack closed...if touched at the wrong time. My old Hot Rods went 5,000 miles between tune-ups and I drove them hard. I learned which points had strong springs to stop bounce and which were least susceptible to burning. Timing and gap are important, a good condenser is a plus, the best cap, rotor, wires and plugs make a big difference, and keep the battery topped-up (distilled water only). If points do the job for my purpose, are simple to maintain and replace, are cheap to use and work as good as electronics for street use, I see no reason to stop using them. Remember, from about 1903 to 1974 points did the job, and moved Americans all over these United States in every type of car, van, SUV (called a Station wagon), bus and truck, if they ran on gasoline.
 
260Alpine

260Alpine

Silver Level Sponsor
Charles, I agree points are fine. When electronic ignition first came out I was leery and kept a point distributor, just in case. I had the best luck with the GM window distributor and allen wrench adjustment. 30 degrees dwell, plugs and tuneup done. I never needed the points distributor with the GM HEI. Ford had some failures with their Duraspark module, probably due to heat in the engine compartment. The Duraspark and any magnetic breaker distributor, even Chrysler or MSD can run the 4 pin GM HEI module externally in a cooler environment. Recently there have been issues with reliability of some of the HEI modules because of offshore parts. If you stick with GM OEM or NAPA you should have no issues.
 
Last edited:
P

pcmenten

Donation Time
I had an 86 Mustang GT with a 5.0 that had the Ford EEC IV engine controller. It worked beautifully until the day it died completely. Apparently, heat can cause the module on the distributor to fail. I replaced it with a Dyna-Mod. Later years of EEC IV moved that module to the firewall.

I read the book about EEC IV ignitions and was very impressed by the design of the system, but to CJ’s point, it failed on me in a very binary way. One minute it’s working, the next it’s dee aye eye dee - daid.

- Paul
 
loose_electron

loose_electron

Donation Time
EMP issues? If we start nuclear EMP'sa we got bigger problems than your ignition. Modern electronic ignition works just fine thanks.
 
C

Charles Johns

Donation Time
Okay guys, "I" did NOT start the EMP discussion, just said my opinion after someone else mentioned it. Simplicity and the fact it works for street use just as good as a late model module type system, is why I am going with old points. loose_electron, I totally agree, if a nuke war starts ignition troubles are our least important thing to worry about. SUN SPOTS do happen and we are way overdue for some. Those are flashes of Electro Magnetic Pulses form a storm on the sun. They usually happen about 30 years apart and the last was in the 70's. They played havoc with TV and Radio then and gave us a little understanding of what we needed to do to "harden" electronics. Electronically things are considered in degrees of damage done. A points system will fail long after chips/IC's have fried. Those home-made transistor systems will also fry first...but those have nothing to do with my building a points system. I do want to thank everyone for joining in on this off-the-wall discussion. We now know Nuke-War can kill our cars...not just US, sun=spots can also...kill our cars, and electrons hate EMP's.
 
65beam

65beam

Donation Time
I have Pertronix units in three of my Beams but I never go anywhere without a set of points and related parts to quickly change over when the units fail.
 
C

Charles Johns

Donation Time
For those concerned, I NEVER had failed ignition parts on any trip, and several were well over a thousand miles one way. My 65 Mustang has PerTronix and it works fine. The reason for electronics is timing injectors with ignition and making engines run cleaner. This 85 Ford 2.3 will run as clean or cleaner than it did in 1985 for the average 85 car. All those street driven car records set before 1975 for HP, MPG, SPEED, HANDLING, and others, all happened using POINTS. It is "out-dated", but is not a bad system! It is simple and it worked for decades, and is fine if a driver is willing to maintain it, which I am. Burned points do not happen if one adjusts/changes them when needed, and I witnessed a bad condenser only once in my 75 years. If you have one, install a set of points or a points dizzy and start it up. You WILL NOT be able to tell the difference between an electronic or points system...if the system is tuned.
 
loose_electron

loose_electron

Donation Time
"In Transistors I Trust"

LOL - Just joking with you all.
Back around 1980. I designed an electronic ignition for a car with digital speed timing advance.
Big clumsy circuit board back then, but you could optimize the timing as a function of the engine speed with a lot of freedom on how it advanced.

Did very well in a dragstrip car.
 
C

Charles Johns

Donation Time
Jerry, I raced in the late 60's with a 1940 Ford corvette powered coupe with Muncie 4 speed. Drove it daily as my only car (the wife got the new one) and besides, it was fun. It ran right at 100 mph in the mid 13's, which is nothing now, but in 69 was a very good street car. YES. it had points. It also had a CB Radio...Goodtime Charlie, Over and Out!
 
loose_electron

loose_electron

Donation Time
Charles Johns said:
Jerry, I raced in the late 60's with a 1940 Ford corvette powered coupe with Muncie 4 speed. Drove it daily as my only car (the wife got the new one) and besides, it was fun. It ran right at 100 mph in the mid 13's, which is nothing now, but in 69 was a very good street car. YES. it had points. It also had a CB Radio...Goodtime Charlie, Over and Out!
Click to expand...

Impressive! CB radio went crazy for a while back then. I did the amateur radio thing and spent my younger years either fixing cars or sitting on radio stations as their broadcast engineer. "back in the day" as they say...
 
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