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Ignition light staying on

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Barrythebrit

Donation Time
On starting my Series V the ignition light stays illuminated and the amp gauge does not read anything until I rev the engine to >3000 rpm or I leave the car running at idle for 5 minutes the the ignition light goes out and the amp gauge gives a reading.
The battery is new and I get 13.8 volts at the battery when the engine is running and 12.8 volts running with all the lights on.
Any ideas anyone?
 
mxp01

mxp01

Platinum Level Sponsor
Does your series V have a alternator or a generator with external Voltage regulator? When The ignition light is on that means that the battery is not receiving a charge. I had this problem with my series IV, but I had the generator with external Voltage regulator. I did away with that set up and with a modern day alternator with internal VR. solved all my problem and I dont have to worry about dead battiers.
 
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Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Barry, I am puzzled as to why you did not state in original post that this was not a stock Alpine Alternator.

So now I have additional questions and some suggestions;
1) How long has this problem been there? Is this a recent development or has it always acted that way, or has it acted that way just since changing to a new Alt?

2) What kind/ brand/ model of Alt is it?

Next I can say that if the battery reads 13.8 when running but only 12.8 when the lights are on then your charging system is not working properly. It sounds like it has lost capacity. And the ignition light is doing its job of warning you. Assuming that previously this same system was perfroming properly, it sure sounds like your alt (and built in regulator) has gone bad and needs repair or replacement. The fact that is works somewhat , but not adequetly, suggests to me that some of the rectifier diodes internal to the Alt have failed.

Tom
 
Jay Laifman

Jay Laifman

Donation Time
I agree that if it worked ok before, then something has changed and is not working right.

But, if it never worked right, it is probably wired incorrectly. The light wire needs to go straight to the ignition light. The other wire to the ignition light needs to go to keyed power. Then the coils in the alternator will charge on ignition and the light will go off, and the alternator will start charging when it is supposed to.
 
RootesRooter

RootesRooter

Donation Time
My Hitachi alternator w/internal regulator has done the same thing since new. I have to rev it up to about 2500-3000rpm before the ammeter needle pops over and it starts charging. Haven't tried leaving at idle for 5 minutes tho to see what happens.
 
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Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
My Hitachi alternator w/internal regulator has done the same thing since new. I have to rev it up to about 2500-3000rpm before the ammeter needle pops over and it starts charging. Haven't tried leaving at idle for 5 minutes tho to see what happens.
Click to expand...

My Hitachi alt does not behave like this. Even at idle it will show pretty heavy charging - pegs the needle on my 35 A ammeter.

On the Hitachi there are 2 wires in addition to the Heavy Bat+ terminal. One goes to directly to the White wires on term 3 of the fuse block and the other goes to the Warning light and the other side of the warning light goes to the same Term 3 of the fuse block. I'm not sure if the effect you are seeing is because one of these wires in not connected. I may try an experiment this weekend to see what effect it has to disconnect one of those wires.

Also note that the most common dwg for this conversion has the ammeter wired incorrrectly.

Tom
 
Jay Laifman

Jay Laifman

Donation Time
Tom and I are saying the same thing. But, I did it without using terminal 3. Any keyed power works.

And the other wire going to terminal 3 from the alternator, that doesn't have to go there either. It can just be looped to the battery wire at the alternator. Yes, a 2" wire (or less).
 
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Jay Laifman

Jay Laifman

Donation Time
I just went and found the post I did on this site over 6 years ago saying the same thing. But then I had the actual wire labels. So, here it is again:

L - this is the light wire. It goes to one side of the red light on the dash next to the key. The other side of that light goes to keyed power.

S - this wire gets looped over to the B wire. Note, I pulled a wiring diagram for the Datsun that my Hitachi came out of. That's exactly how they did it too!

B - this wire goes to the battery, through the connection at the solenoid on the firewall.

That's it. The external voltage regulator and the warning light simulator, and all the wires that attach to them, are useless and can be removed.

Oh, one other thing, the Datsun wiring diagram showed a resistor that was parallel to the warning bulb. I believe this is so that in the event the light blows, the pre-start charging will still occur. I have not done that. I have an extra bulb.

Oh, second other thing, I was able to source one of the T shaped plugs to wire the alternator rather than using shielded female wire ends. But both are fine.
 
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Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Jay,

Just one minor point. The S wire. It's OK to just jump it over to the B wire, but there IS a valid reason to run it to the fuse block instead. The S wire is the "Sense", wire. It senses the output Voltage of the Alt so the alt can internally adjust itself to output the correct voltage. If you jump that wire over to the B+ terminal it will sense the voltage at that point and the Alt will adjust itself to provide the desired voltage at the B+ terminal. BUT there is some resistance in the B+ cable and with current flowing thru that cable the volatge at the fuse block and at the battery will be a little lower than the correct voltage. if you run that S wire over to the fuse block instead, the Alt internal regulator will adjust so that the voltage AT THE FUSE BLOCK will be the correct voltage. This is called "remote sensing" .

Regarding the original posters issue, I have never actually tested the result, but do you know for a fact that if the L wire is not connected (or if the bulb is burned out) that the Alt will behave as described by him and by Rootes Rooter and not actually start charging until high revs? If so then both Barry and Rootes have some work to do!

Tom
 
B

Barrythebrit

Donation Time
Tom H said:
Barry, I am puzzled as to why you did not state in original post that this was not a stock Alpine Alternator.

So now I have additional questions and some suggestions;
1) How long has this problem been there? Is this a recent development or has it always acted that way, or has it acted that way just since changing to a new Alt?

2) What kind/ brand/ model of Alt is it?

Next I can say that if the battery reads 13.8 when running but only 12.8 when the lights are on then your charging system is not working properly. It sounds like it has lost capacity. And the ignition light is doing its job of warning you. Assuming that previously this same system was perfroming properly, it sure sounds like your alt (and built in regulator) has gone bad and needs repair or replacement. The fact that is works somewhat , but not adequetly, suggests to me that some of the rectifier diodes internal to the Alt have failed.

Tom
Click to expand...

Thanks all for you input - I am just going to take this back a couple of steps and answer Tom's quesion.

1.) The problem started last Autumn just before I placed her in storage for the winter ( Ireland -so winteer is 9 months of rain). I have only run her a few times over the winter and just preparing to get her back on the road in the next couple of weeks. The problem came out of the blue.

2.)The alternator is a Lucas type A100 - I think it is either a reproduction one of refurbished as it has the company name as CJR Rotating Electrics.

Tom - I am not sure what a sock Series V was fitted with.... we are not all as knwoledgeable as yourself, hence reuest fo help on the forum! Also it does not seem to have a voltage regulator allthrough I have one in a box of bits and peices supplied when I purchesed the car.. I wodr if this will help solve the problem.
 
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Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Barry, I'm truly sorry if my post felt insulting. That was not my intent. I have helped many people on this forum with less knowledge than myself.

Your original post had voltage readings that indicated a level of understanding and competenece. And note that based on that info I DID respond that there is definitely a problem in your charging circuit .

In a later post you indicated your car has an alternator but no external regulator. That you could recognize and understand that detail about the charging system would indicate to me that you had a significant understanding of the system, and probably had access to a work shop manual or other means of understanding what you had and would surely then know that it was not original. It baffles me that you know enough to say it has no external regulator, but not know it is not a stock set up.

Enough of that- let's get crankin'

So we know it is not working correctly and we know it used to work OK.

I cannot find any information on a Lucas A100. I think you are correct that it is likely a refurbished unit of some sort, but without more information it's really not possible to figure out what might be wrong. How many wires are connected to it? Are there any labels on the terminals which would help indicate what the connections are? Where/how did you get the number A100?

And just to be sure it is not an original type Alt and external regulator, see pages 9-31 here, and especially 19 and 27 to see and understand what the stock Alternator / regulator system looks like :
http://www.rootes1725cc.info/wsm145/WSM_N/N.htm

I'm ready to help.

Tom
 
B

Barrythebrit

Donation Time
Photos

A couple of photos of the alternator. I will attempt some of the testing and let you know what the result is.
 

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Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Barry, you posted these photos before, and I commented on them. But I guess both posts got lost in the site crash. I see the A100 number here, but I find nothing on line about that model number Alt, so it is difficult o know how it should be wired. Here is an article on Alternators that may be helpful.

http://www.tb-training.co.uk/MarineE08.html

But one thing I DO notice in your photos is that there is no wire connected to wht appears to be one of the terminals on the alt.

Tom
 
B

Barrythebrit

Donation Time
I re-cleaned all the connections and replaced the dash warning light bulb.....and guess what the ignition light works as it should do now as does the Amp gauge!
That leaves me wondering why it happened in the first place. bulb or corroded connections either way I am happy and pleased with my increased knowledge of alternators and look forward to doing some of the alternator tests anyway.

I am now a bit worried that I should have a Voltage regulator installed.
Many thanks:D
 
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Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Great work! Congrats.

And note that you already DO have a voltage regulator. It's internal to your Alternator. The original Alternator on our Alpines was an early design and required an external regulator. What you have now is not an original type and has a built in regulator. I too have a replacement Alt with built-in regulator as do many on this forum.

Tom
 
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