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High Speed Rail in the USA?

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
I had never given the issue much serious though until a few days ago when it came up in the Rants section. Really got me to thinking. My thoughts run like this:

The price of crude hit $147 last year, put a big hurt on the air industry.
World economy tanked, crude dropped to $35.
World economy is still in the toilet, in fact, still going down, but crude is in the $70 range.
When the World economy finally rebounds, crude will probably zoom past $200.
That will be the end of cheap domestic flights.
Could well be the end of domestic airline industry as well know it. Don't invest in the air transportation industry!!

We will wish we had started a high speed rail system 10 years ago. Yeah, I think Obama should order surveying to start Monday.

Bill
 

wipeout

Donation Time
I've given it a lot of thought

Light rail is a good thing but we as citizens will pay for every linear foot put in...

how about this...

Let the oil companies build the friggin refineries that we should have built ten years ago
Let them drill in Alaska and off the coasts

Oil doesn't go up because supply is there to meet demand and we only pay for what we use.

Been saying that for twelve years now...

Drill - Refine - Supply
Build better vehicles
Build Light Rail (when we can afford it...oh, like when we actually pay down a 5 trillion dollar debt)

Obama should allow building permits as soon as he gets back from his "Apology" tour.
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
Railroads almost universally, worldwide, lose money. There are many reasons, among which is the fluctuating passenger load. Railroads have to HAVE enough locomotives, rolling stock, personnel and equipment to handle peak loads, typically early morning and late afternoon, and most of these are fixed costs that result in huge losses the rest of the day.

The showpiece high-speed raiLroads, as in Japan and Europe, only exist because they are state-owned and receive massive subsidies. This used to be the case in Britain, but Maggie Thatcher sold the system off to private enterprises like Virgin. Today, instead of a single, integrated system, like the lamented BritishRail, it is a mish-mosh of various train companies, and seperate companies handling the infrastructure, such as signaling, track maintenance, bridges etc.

Two things have come from this, both bad. The cost of tickets has soared, as the companies seek to be profitable, so that rail travel in the UK is several times more expensive than in the rest of Europe. And fatal rail crashes have soared, mainly due to skimped infrastructure maintenance.
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
From MikeH:
Sure, why not. Biden could manage it.
How about we just make him a conductor? I'm sure he would get along famously with the passengers.

From Wipeout
Light rail is a good thing but we as citizens will pay for every linear foot put in...
Yes, same as the Interstates. There is no free lunch.

Let the oil companies build the friggin refineries that we should have built ten years ago
Let them drill in Alaska and off the coasts

Okay.

Oil doesn't go up because supply is there to meet demand and we only pay for what we use.
For some reason, oil supply met demand last summer. Did anyone have any problem finding all the gasoline they could afford to buy when the price was $4.50? Did anybody have to come back to tomorrow to fill up? Domestic crude follows world price markets. Gasoline produced from Indiana wells drilled when crude was less than $10 a barrel sold at $4.50, the same as gasoline produced from North Sea crude. The price of domestic crude will go up.

It would be better for you to advocate rail without conditions.

Nickodell:
Railroads almost universally, worldwide, lose money. There are many reasons, among which is the fluctuating passenger load. Railroads have to enough locomotives, rolling stock, personnel and equipment enough to handle peak loads, typically early morning and late afternoon, and most of these are fixed costs that result in huge losses the rest of the day.
Yep.

The showpiece high-speed rairoads, as in Japan and Europe, only exist because they are state-owned and receive massive subsidies.

Yep, yep.

This used to be the case in Britain, but Maggie Thatcher sold the system off to private enterprises like Virgin. Today, instead of a single, integrated system, like the lamented BritishRail, it is a mish-mosh of various train companies, and seperate companies handling the infrastructure, such as signaling, track maintenance, bridges etc.

I didn't realize the British rail system was in such bad shape.

Two things have come from this, both bad. The cost of tickets has soared, as the companies seek to be profitable, so that rail travel in the UK is several times more expensive than in the rest of Europe. And fatal rail crashes have soared, mainly due to skimped infrastructure maintenance.


Nick, would you please comment further on this? Are you advocating a government run railroad? I've long thought if the government was in the railroad business, it should do it the opposite of ConRail. It should build and maintain the road and let private entities (the guys that own the rolling stock) use it and paying a users fee to cover costs, much like a toll road.

In short, I consider rail to be far from perfect, but probably the best we will be able to have for a long time.

Bill
 

wipeout

Donation Time
domestic crude follows world price markets because not enough of it is produced to effect speculation.

we have the interstates, paying for those...don't need to pay for your light rail if I'm not using it or a high percentage of the citizens.

we have the infrastructure we need in place. make the vehicles right and flood the market with more petroleum.

Unify the gasoline standards so special blends are not necessary and refinery rotation will stop. Tap into our natural gas deposits, build more nuclear facilities and keep coal production up. All these things will help in bringing us closer to getting light rail.

The time to implement new things is when the old things have lost their usefulness...and contrary to the nut and berry crowd...petroleum products are going to remain this worlds life blood for the next 100 years. Within that time, we'll see new discoveries that will make our reliance on gasoline a joke.

But to scrap what we have already done, in favor of building something we cant afford, is lunacy. Light rail is a pipe dream with no proven record. In fact, the cities that have it now are bleeding money keeping it viable.
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
All I will say about petroleum production: Do you really think we can produce enough to control the world price in light of all the development going on in India and China?

Why are you speaking of light rail? I'm talking about high speed rail to essentially replace the domestic airline industry. This would be heavy rail to move trains at 175 mph. As far as I know, we have nothing like I think would be needed.

Bill
 

wipeout

Donation Time
It is because of India and China that we need to do what I suggest and sorry about the light rail thing...we're going thru that stuff down here now...(a push for light rail between Orlando and Tampa)...

My point, although obscured in my rhetoric, is that we shouldn't waste more money on something before we've exhausted our attempts of revitalizing an established commodity. It aint going away and High Speed Rail will need petrol to move anyway. Unless of course we use magnets and electricity, in which case we'll need more coal and nukes.

:rolleyes:
 

Series6

Past President
Gold Level Sponsor
OK, now I'm ranting...

Why are you speaking of light rail? I'm talking about high speed rail to essentially replace the domestic airline industry. This would be heavy rail to move trains at 175 mph. As far as I know, we have nothing like I think would be needed.

Bill

High spped rail didn't replace short jaunts on airplanes in Europe. I was there in 06 and went all over Germany on ICE for the sightseeing aspect. It is a way of life in Europe but it's always been there and is widely used but you can still take a plane instead. it's certainly less expensive to take ICE.

Remember there were railroads in Europe and the HS rail took over the existing track, after they were modified for HSR. It isn't a matter of just building a few trains. Our existing track won't handle HSR. You'd need to acquire the land to lay the track too. We abandoned trains after WW2. We made our bed with the automobile and our cities are aimed at cars. Do you propose to change the layout of our major cities to accomodate trains? How many people would be kicked out of their homes?

We spent a few jillion dollars to put light rail in Phoenix and it's operating at a loss due to low ridership. It's slow and really doesn't go where a majority of us need to be.
 

SIVAllan

Gold Level Sponsor
The AMTRAK station in Atlanta doesn't even have a parking lot.

How smart is that?

The much discussed Atlanta multi-modal station, that would hook-up the airport, the central subway station, and use EXISTING tracks to extend passenger rail transportation to the larger cities nearby, remains a political football after years of political posturing.
 

wipeout

Donation Time
Look, if it's a great idea to put in a bullet train from say the east coast to the west...or up and down each coastline...then I say, let a private company come in and place their nuts on the table and go for it.

If it will take the place of air travel because of fuel, then let a private company take the gamble.

Right now, in this time of insane economical solutions (piling on a $55,000 tax debt to each of us just this year alone) we can't stand to be funding anymore ventures that have little return.

Let's get our America back on it's glorious feet and build these things because our prosperity is unstopable and as a global leader, the envy of the world, it would be our duty to show the rest of the globe that this is what you get when you are fiscally responsible, keep government small and cherish freedom. (hows that for a run on sentence?)

It's okay to disagree on how we get there. It's okay if you want to give yourself a tag, as long as the priority is to leave this country strong, free and a land of oppurtunity that makes all other countries jealous of our blessings. We can do it again. But we all have to stop bickering over each tree and stand back and see the forest.

:D
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Yes, that is why we need to start from scratch. Even if the tracks could handle high speed trains, it is not practical to run 175 mph and 50 mph trains on the same track. But we did a pretty good trick back in WWII, running 80 mph passenger and freight on the same rail.

High speed rail has not replaced planes in Europe, but what happens when the price of
crude quadruples? What happens when we think $200 crude is "cheap"?

No need to redesign the cities, all I'm talking about is replacing airports with terminals, which should be downtown. How many would be kicked out of their homes? Not a clue. I'm sure it would be a lot. We do it all the time to build and improve highways.

Light rail? Never touch the stuff. Now that IS a can of worms! I do think that the two should be linked geographically. No need to have to take a taxi from the high speed rail to board any light rail that may exist.

Oh yes, nukes to power trains? Why not?

By the way, my brother in law is an engineer, think it is the UP. He says coming in with extra fuel in your tanks is all they care about these days. Much more than being a few minutes late. He said that on his run, his biggest task is to top the hills at the slowest speed possible. I think he said they burn 43 gallons of Diesel a second.

Wipeout, in the next 100 years, we would probably use many times the petroleum we have used in the past 100 as we really didn't "get started" until mid century, and China and India could make our consumption look insignificant. Each of them has a population roughly 5 times ours and currently using less than 1/8th the oil per capita. Their future potential to consume cheap oil is staggering. If their populations did not increase, but their consumption per capita equalled ours, together they would consume 10 times what we consume today. That's a lot of oil.

Bill
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Look, if it's a great idea to put in a bullet train from say the east coast to the west...or up and down each coastline...then I say, let a private company come in and place their nuts on the table and go for it.

If it will take the place of air travel because of fuel, then let a private company take the gamble.

No one has the stones to put the billions on the table until the need is apparent. Then where will we be for the next 10 years? This is the same as rural electrification in the 30's.

I'm not talking about the affordability or really who should build it, but the need to have one. After that is settled, we can talk about price, who bankrolls it and track location.

Bill
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
Nick, would you please comment further on this? Are you advocating a government run railroad? I've long thought if the government was in the railroad business, it should do it the opposite of ConRail.

Bill

Depends on how you regard railroads - a mode of passenger transportation for distances too far to drive but not far enough for an airline trip, or to move freight.

From their very beginning, railroads' main objective has been to move freight. Passengers are a bloody nuisance; you have to provide shelter at each end of the trip, keep them warm/cool and comfortable, provide refreshment, etc., and get them to their destination as fast as possible. They are expensive in equipment, energy and personnel. Because of these expenses, passenger service has rarely even paid its way, far less made a profit. The railroads had to carry passengers because they are "common carriers," like bus lines. The demise of passenger railroads really began in the 1930s, as automobiles became more prevalent and reliable. In many cases the only thing that kept them going in the US and Britain was WWII. After 1945 they really went into a slump and never recovered. In Britain, the four big railways (The London, Midland and Scottish; the London and Northeastern; The Great Western and the Southern, that had themselves been formed from over 100 smaller ones in 1922) were busted and broke, and were nationalized in 1947.

Freight is far, far more profitable. You can leave it on sidings if it's not a rush commodity like produce, fish or meat, and fling/hopper/slurp on and off whatever it is - coal, ballast, wheat, oil, corn syrup, toxic chemicals and so on. It dosen't need to be kept warm or cool, a two-mile long freight train carrying thousands of tons of goods needs only two crew, and instead of huge and expensive stations they need only loading/unloading yards.

Freight railroads, like ConRail, are strategically and commercially indispensable, and in that respect it doesn't really matter whether the government or private carriers run them.
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Nick, I'm defining "railroad" pretty broadly. Mainly, a system built to heavy passenger and express service. I'm thinking of something like Uncle Sam building the infrastructure and letting it be used for whatever the market demands. There would be weight and speed (max and min) impositions and that's about it. And of course, safety standards. The commodity would be anything the operator could transfer within those restrictions. How the "commodity" was handled would be up to the operator.

Bill
 

am99ey

Gold Level Sponsor
I agree with Bill..
There has got to be a start to everything.
Switzerland, a few decades ago, only few (no one) used trains. Roads with plenty of smoke and Rootes like vehicles where common. Thats when I bought my Alpine. These days are different. No way commuting without a performant railway infrastructure. Yes, Switzerland is small compared to other countries, but hilly landscape also demands high investments to build and maintain the infrastructure. Future thinking is possible, anywhere on this earth. I would not like to miss the public transports for commuting. We adjust our swiss watches according to train arrival *laugh*.
But then on the weekend I open the garage, a feeling you might now...

http://mct.sbb.ch/mct/en/konzern_zukunft.htm?=
http://www.swisstravelsystem.ch/en/content/geography/
 

SumBeans

Donation Time
Bullet Trains

I recently read an article from a group in Arizona proposing the construction of an electric High Speed train powered by its own electric solar panels mounted on top of the rail line. The group dreams of a high speed connection between Tuscon and Phoenix on two tracks in the first phase. At this point it is merely a proposal and alot of OPM (other peoples money) is required.:eek: I just wonder if they find the money, how many people will be required to clean the tumbleweed dust of the solar panels daily:confused:
The catch 22 of the present AMTRAK system is the shared routes that they lease from the freight lines. The eastern(N/S) corridor line is a ground level track that dips and doodles with every road crossing. There is not enough travellers to justify a segregated passenger train route, but conversely a segregated route that is smooth and uninterrupted between routes would make the trip more enjoyable and increase riders/revenues. This is where I agree with Bill's Forward thinking.
Amtrak drops their Diesel and transfers over to a smoother electric version in D.C and the volume of riders increases through to New York city. Where does the juice come from? Convential power plants burning fossil fuels mostly. Hopefully with the new solar and windgenerating power plants sprouting up around the continent, governments will moth ball their Dinosaur minded Coal generating sources:eek:. and invest in smarter technology.
From what I understand the same downfall was happening in England untill recently. The train was invented and developed during their Industrial revolution back in the 1800's and running on some wore down routes.. They have presently removed some of their twisty and bendy rail lines for better and smoother lines that are Not shared with the freight companies. This I understand has increased their riders numbers due to some willing to inve$t in the system and their future.
It takes alot of time to change peoples minds, and just like the dinosaurs it is not untill many of the "It has worked this way for years" generation that are on this planet die off can the next generations have an opportunity to change their transportation resources.:D
Electric is definitely the future, but I thought the "TURBO", a gas turbine machine which came out in the 1950's was innovative Forward thinking for it's time.
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
Existing routes, even those that can handle 90 mph in parts (like the NE Corridor from D.C. to NYC) can not be modified to take true HSTs because the routes were originally laid a) to connect urban centers, power stations, docks, etc., and b) to take advantage of the most level routes to avoid as far as possible lengthy tunnels beneath high ground, viaducts to bridge low ground, and rivers. As a result, there were few lines "at tangent" (the engineering term meaning straight) in Europe for more than a mile or so before they go off in curves again. There are, of course, much greater stretches in the USA, but generally where people wouldn't want to go.

By improving the roadbed and signaling, they did achieve a useful speed increase in Europe with the advent of diesel and, especially, electric traction. I traveled on the TEE (Trans European Express) in the 1970s, and they managed averages of over 65mph between cities, and in Britain the "Intercity 125" (it cruised at 125 mph in some stretches) was a big improvement. But these were only possible in routes that had originally been laid for speed in the 19th century. They tried an innovation to get a few more mph with a design called the "tilting train" in Britain; it banked over in curves to allow higher speeds, but was a flop (a wealthy train buff bought the experimental train and runs it on his estate).

The introduction of the TGV (Train a Grand Vitesse), or High-speed Train, initially in France (which holds the world rail speed record at some lunatic speed like 300 mph) and later in other EU countries, required laying ruler-straight track that simply galloped over hills instead of snaking round them, due to the enormous power reserves in the electric locos. In the past, it was an acknowledged fact that the maximum gradient a main-line train could consstemtly run at was less than 1%. The TGVs effortlessly take on gradients of four times that and more.

In order to build the TGV lines, you need a government system like France's, which is closer to a dictatorship than a democracy [did you know that they did away with juries 200 years ago?] In effect, a government committee took a pencil and ruler and drew lines connecting major hubs like Paris, Lyon [not Lyons, as you keep seeing in the press! Like oil "weight" :D] Marseilles and Tulouse, and in a very few years the deed was done. Here it would never go beyond the initial planning stage, due to environmental wakos and endless court appeals from landowners.

And, of course, we're talking untold billions of dollars for a system that would never even come close to paying for itself. In fact, it would probably be a constant drain on the taxpayer. However, there may be hope yet. Harry Reid wrote a piece of pork into the Stimulous Bill for a high-speed line from his congressional district to Disneyland. I kid you not.
 

mikephillips

Donation Time
Bill,
Don't know what the proper figure is but they can't possibly use 43 gallons a second. That's almost 2600 gallons a minute and nearly 155,000 gallons an hour. Don't see how thay could carry enough fuel to go anywhere, particularly out west where stops can be so far apart.
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Nick, some informative posting, but essentially, your dodging my question: Who do you think should be the central operative and financial figure behind a modern high speed line?

Mike, I don't know. A quick search uncovered this info from a UP quarterly report.

Fuel coast down 47% from first quarter of 1008 to an average of $1.51 per gallon.
Used $957 million of fuel in 1st qtr of 2008.
Used $386 million of fuel in 1st qtr of 2009.

I'll let the mathematically inclined do the honors, especially for 2008 which is more representative of usage, freight is way down.

Bill
 
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