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[Bill Blue]

Not when you take into consideration:

a) Ethanol is heavily subsidized from taxes (no free lunch)
b) By the time fertilizers, transportation etc. (all petroleum-derived) are included, it costs as much, or more, to produce than it's worth
c) It lowers mpg
d) The whole misbegotten program has raised the price of food, from cereals to beef

Not much of a bargain

a) So is gasoline.
b)If so, why is it produced? Don't say because of the subsidy unless you include the gasoline subsidy in your response.
c) So what? Cost per mile is more important than MPG.
d) Hard to tell. If the price of corn gets too high, ethanol production will be among the first to go as the subsidy is fixed.

Bill

 

[65beam]

my response was based on being in the business of selling the fuels. it doesn't make any difference to me what thoughts may be. engineers can make their comments, users and mechanics can say what they want. i know that 15 years ago i was buying and retrofitting trucks and bulk plants set up with seals ,etc that were resistent to the effects of ethanol. much the same that was being done to older diesel engines when we went fron H.S diesel to L.S diesel. old pumps started leaking bad. i know the excise tax credits given by states for blending ethanol into the gas. i also know about the blender credit if you have the license to buy and blend your own fuel. these two items drop cost 10 cents here in ohio. now keep in mind that to blend an 87 octane ethanol we start with a sub grade gas which is usually an 84 octane gas. before anything else is said subgrade gas means that it is less than an 87 octane. the ethanol will boost the 84 octane up to an 87 octane. in the columbus market an 87 G10 from shell is actually an 89G10 since they don't have the capacity to stock two grades of standard gas. on my recent trip to the west coast to pick up a sunbeam, i found that in some states along I80 i could buy an 89 octane ethanol for 10 cents less than a conventional 87 octane gas. i have said before that there are very few sources for conventional gas here in ohio. ehthanol is here to stay and everything we read and hear from the petroleum marketers associations and other sources tells those of us that sell and broker fuel for a living will eventually see the percentage of ethanol move up. this past weekend i was looking for a part for my older mower and found that the seals,etc are now upgraded to handle ethanol. the new mower we recently bought has a sticker that says do not use E85. the mechanic at the store / small engine parts store also said don't worry about using 87G10. most of the older parts that could be a problem only cost a couple dollars anyway. i like the fact that we can lower our cost to the stores and we all make more money with ethanol. i guess if we worry about taxes ,cost of other products, etc we have no one to blame but ourselves since we elected the people in D.C. or continue to live in the past. this is the life we have to live with just like we have to live with the engine oils now being produced. welcome to the real world!

 

[Nickodell]

The whole idea of growing food in order to, in the end, burn it is not only bizarre, it's immoral. And just as cockeyed as paying farmers not to grow foodstuffs or raise cattle. If we do get around to producing ethanol from biomass at a competitive price without subsidies to gasoline, I'll be one of the first to cheer.

As we are learning daily, there is enough petroleum and natural gas right here in the US to make us energy independent, if only we would get it out of the ground. The situation reminds me of a guy with a million dollars in a safe deposit who borrows money from loan sharks at 25%.

In any event, in many ways methanol would be a better fuel than ethanol.

 

[mamoose124]

Oil, ZDDP & additives

Getting back to the issue of oil for our cars, do you guys agree we should put a "sticky" at the top of this "stock" forum warning all newbies to be careful about what oil they use?

It seems this is a serious matter and a newbie could easily join our group and not learn the issue until too late!

Tom

I'm a newbie and didn't know a thing about this problem until I ran across this thread. I vote for a "sticky" on this subject. Great idea. What about 10% ethanol and octane levels in gasoline for our Classic cars? For instance, I have heard that one should run the highest octane available in thee old engines. Should this be included?

 

[mattinoz]

you can complain about ethanol, but without it the price of gas would be much higher. here in ohio there is very little source for conventional gas. the same for E85. as far as zddp,it is available at napa,carquest and most auto parts stores. i buy my zddp bottles at the local carquest.

For us non USA residents i assume zddp is lead replacement product? In AUS if you have an head without hardened valve seats then a lead additive is essential with unleaded fuels. We also have an E85 product but fortunately also have 95 and 98 octane leadfree fuels as well as standard unleaded, octane rating unknown as i haven't use it on any of the cars i have i owned in the last decade. I use the 98 with lead additive in my Alpine as I'm not sure if have a head with hardened valves.

 

[65beam]

ZDDP is the anti wear additive that used to be in all engine oils sold in the U.S. only a few specialties use it now.

 

[Tom H]

Here is one of the earlier articles on the subject of Oil and ZDDP:

http://www.dctra.org/?p=79


Tom

 

[Jay Laifman]

There is higher ZDDP in Mobil1 15/50.

 

[mamoose124]

ZDDP Additives

I have been following this thread [Stock Alpine>Help]on the proper oil for our Sunbeam engines with great interest. Especially, since the recent shifts in governmental requirements (API-2004, API SM-2010, and API SN –current) that have lowered the ZPPD levels and changed the additives in oil. But I noted most of the references were from 1004 to 2007 with not much recent data (i.e., 2013-2014; in fact, nothing, I can recall).

This prompted me to goggle some of these issues and I ran across Driven Racing Oils presentation on their products. I’m not trying to promote Driven Racing Oils but I must admit that I am very impressed with the level of expertise underlying their research and the products they offer. Take a look at the following and see if you agree:

May 2013

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6IAmormncQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElfOddECtMc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tkbzu7JRWdI
https://www.youtube.com/user/DrivenRacingOil

March 21, 2014

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjprVghW32Q&list=UUYPEHOgIoXhX0abIHNz0TBQ&index=3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjprVghW32Q&index=3&list=UUYPEHOgIoXhX0abIHNz0TBQ

 

[mamoose124]

This is an addition to the URLs already sited and comes from this Driven PDF file http://www.drivenracingoil.com/newsfiles/DR101-14-DRIVEN-LoRes.pdf

FICTION:

Flat tappet engines can’t use synthetic oil because the lifters won’t rotate – the synthetic oil is too slippery.

This is a variation on the first myth that has become popular since flat tappet camshaft failures began to increase about a decade ago. Like the first myth, the origin relates to the misapplication of passenger car motor oil. Twenty years ago it was common for racers to use off-the-shelf motor oils in their racing engines because the oils contained enough ZDDP (Zinc) to protect aggressive camshaft designs. Over time though, the ZDDP levels in synthetic off-the-shelf oils were reduced due to EPA regulations for passenger cars. This reduction caused these formulations to be insufficient for protecting flat tappet camshafts. This implied that the problem was with the synthetic oil rather than the lack of ZDDP. However, choosing a synthetic motor oil with special formulation that includes more ZDDP will protect your flat tappet camshaft.