Gearbox noise

[am99ey]

Now it hit my gearbox too...
Yesterday on a 280 km drive, my gearbox started to make unusual and frightening noise during a very steep road onto a mountain pass.
What I experienced:
- last 5'000 km a whining noise in 3rd while decelerating, increasing loudness over the past few month/years
- yesterday going strongly uphill, suddenly not able to change from 2nd to 3rd, a frightening noise from the gearbox coming, repeatedly pressing the clutch helped to go into 3rd. Gear stick feels "unhealthy" during gear change.
- driving home going only in 3rd 4th and OD, very carefully.
- back home, maneuvering in front of the garage, 1st, 2nd, reverse, AND neutral make noise. In neutral, pressing the clutch repeatedly changes the noise every time.
I guess the gearbox needs a rebuild.. The main problem is that knowledge of these cars are thinning out around here.
What could have possibly happened ?
Thanks for your ideas

PS mountain pass:
putting the brain in the clove box ..

during the week:

 

[Acollin]

Thanks for the video— although I was expecting “ frightening noises” from your gearbox.
While you may indeed need a rebuild, but I would first go through some diagnostic steps.

Check gearbox oil level and the drain the gearbox to see if anything can be learned. If it is determined that you need a rebuild, these steps will be part of that process.

you made it home— that is a good sign!!

Let us know what you find
be well
Andrew

 

[am99ey]

Hi Andrew
Thanks and sorry for having only the clips to the youtube videos on "Klausenpass".
When the noise suddenly appeared I had everything else in the head, but not to grab the smartphone for recording.
Heavy rain with clouds, no one else on the road on that altitude, dawn was slowly setting in, and steep drop just beside the tarmac. (second clip - 7:30 onward - at the moment we have exceptional heavy rainfall with flooding in the Alps)
I don't have an equipped workshop, only a kitchen table ..
Oil check and refill will definitely not fix the noise, especially that I felt on the gear stick that something is "grinding in there".
I recon noise like this comes from a bearing by defective ball/needles/rollers etc..
I need to find first a mechanic who is able to handle Rootes matters.

 

[am99ey]

Now the gearbox is on the workbench and the cause is determined - see attachments.
The bearing surface of both half-shafts are damaged.
Where can I find a replacement ?
A hint would be appreciated...
Thank you, Andy



PS: ... unfortunately I can not upload the video clip with the noise recorded as this platform does not allow .mp4 files.

 

[am99ey]

... are there any sources for the input-shaft and output shafts ?
I can not find any on the internet.
Thanks for helping.

 

[spmdr]

Trans shops repair output/Main shafts daily and an OD shaft is worthy of repair.

Input shaft bearing surfaces are repairable but usually more cost effective to replace.

Used/reusable Input shafts are not hard to come by, in general.

Contact a manual Trans shop.

DW

 

[am99ey]

Hello, thanks for all the help.
A short feedback form my side.
The mechanic has finished rebuilding my gearbox. Ufff - this is big relief for me.
He had used shafts in his shop. The replaced input shaft was usable without work done, and the output shaft needed a slight grind of 4/100 mm of the bearing running surface. He used all the parts of a repair kit he ordered from UK.
Soon the gearbox will be installed and the Alpine goes for a test drive...
Not sure of the gearbox oil we need. I have read a simple SAE 30 non-detergent is the correct quality ?
(why is non-detergent needed?)

 

[nsbluenose]

SAE 30 is correct. Non detergent as there is no combustion in a transmission so the oil stays clean.

 

[beamdream]

OD unit doesn't take kindly to some of the compounds use in multi mix / detergent/ synthetic oils; i.e. keep it simple with old school oils.

Just ensure that your mechanic has thoroughly flushed/cleaned out the OD unit, with the debris that's been circulating in the trans oil you want to ensure it's spic and span on the inside. You're aware there's a filter in the OD unit ?

 

[am99ey]

The gearbox was cleaned and the OD with filter was flushed out.
I found a supplier for SAE30 non detergent oil. I am going to use that.
Out of interest - what would the OD mind if it had to cope with "normal" multigrade oil ? What effect would it have to the OD?
The mechanic said he always uses 10W40 for these gearboxes.

 

[hartmandm]

If you do some searching on the forum you will find warnings that some oil additives will eat away the yellow metals in the OD.

I run a "modern" conventional (detergent) 10W/40 in my gearbox + OD. I'm open to trying single grade 30, too. To each his own.

Mike

 

[jumpinjan]

I recommend you try Red-Line MTL from Summit.
Jan

 

[am99ey]

The gearbox is now back in the car. The test drive last week was a big disappointment.
Gearing up 1/2/3/4 works well, but gearing down from 3rd to 2nd is impossible four out of five attempts. If it works, then very rough and sounds like not synchronized.
On top of it, some noise from the input shaft sounds like an old bearing without oil when decelerating in 3rd and 4th gear. Clutching in and out in neutral gear (standing still) gives a similar noise, sometimes, not always ..
History of what was done :
Removing the defective, and later on the installing of the "repaired" gearbox was done near my location. A team of young and enthusiastic mechanics have done a good job - I was concerned in the beginning, but it turned out to be a good job.
The defective gearbox I took to a mechanic who is familiar with Alpines since years, he is located one hour drive away from my home.
He promised me to have a look at it later on as he has the workshop full of cars to finish repairing at the moment.
So I need to drive there, maybe next week, and I am very concerned to damage something while driving there.
Are there any experiences and ideas out there ..?

 

[jumpinjan]

There are special tools needed to work on these transmissions. I had to fabricate my own to properly work on them. I can't believe "A team of young and enthusiastic mechanics" had the tools to repair it. Sounds like it's screwed-up.
Jan

 

[hartmandm]

I think he meant the removal of original gearbox and installation of a second gearbox was done by the local young folk. Repair of original gearbox will be done by someone else.

Mike

 

[jumpinjan]

Yeah, just say the facts and less noise....can be confusing.
Jan

 

[am99ey]

Jan, Mike - sorry if I was not precise enough.
I have had the original gearbox "rebuilt", as I would like to keep the car as original as possible, since 1977 when I bough it.
The young guys only removed the GB, and installed the repaired GB again a week later, by my instructions/hints which I gathered here in the forum and in the WSM. Combined with their knowledge they have done a good job as far I can judge. They servicing my other "new" car too and I am happy with them ..
The rebuild of the GB was done by a well equipped mechanic (1 hour drive away), who had done many rebuilds over the last donkey years. He also has a stock of parts, used and new ones. Now on my GB the input shaft is a re-used one, the output shaft was faintly reground (4/100mm by a toolmaker) on the bearing surface of the needle bearing going into the input shaft.
He does all the range of work needed on Alpines and Rootes Cars. He has a good reputation. But somewhere something went wrong.
The two effects described above make no sense to me...
Andy