Fitting a Tiger front crossmember

[JWP]

I would like to add rack & pinion steering to my Alpine V.
Can a tiger front suspension cradle complete with suspension and steering rack be fitted to an Alpine V with it's 4 cylinder?
Are there other ways to accomplish this? Suggestions and comments welcome.
Thank you

 

[Dan Moore]

Answer is yes I put 1 in mine 40 yrs ago you will need the steering linkage and steering wheel to but you will have to deal with the Tiger issues
Dan

 

[JWP]

I understand the steering linkage. Is the steering wheel unique?
And what 'tiger issues' are you referring to? I will be keeping the 4 cylinder in place.

 

[alpine_64]

Basically adding a tiger front end to an alpine is about the worst way of doing it...

Tigers have the rack mounted too far forward which creates negative Ackerman geometry as the steering arms angle backwards.

Therefore the inside wheel turns a larger radius than the outside wheel...the reverse of what you want...
This creates understeer and also reduces self centering.

It also overloads the fullcrum pins when the wheels are turning and car is reversing.

Why do you want a rack?

 

[DanR]

I would like to add rack & pinion steering to my Alpine V.

Why do this? The stock Alpine steering in the SIII, SIV and SV is the best!

Suggest you keep the stock and stay away from the tiger.

 

[JWP]

I agree with you about the negative Ackerman geometry alpine_64. I'm am exploring any options to improve steering geometry and adding rack. As for the reason to add rack/pinion steering, I prefer it as it has better and quicker feel.

 

[JWP]

Thanks DanR. I have reviewed your brake and steering engineering posts. I will be considering these in the future.

 

[alpine_64]

I agree with you about the negative Ackerman geometry alpine_64. I'm am exploring any options to improve steering geometry and adding rack. As for the reason to add rack/pinion steering, I prefer it as it has better and quicker feel.

The alpine geometry is fine, the box doesn't feel as precise as a rack... That said...it isolates kickback better... And.. there must be a way to make it feel more precise..given period Alfas use basically the exact system a have superlative feel.

As for your steering feel...
What condition is the steering box in?
Have you got all your bushes and suspension links in perfect condition.. no wear?.
What are the springs like? Are they stock?
What sway bar have you got? How are the bushings? Do you want to upgrade the bushings?
Condition of ball joints and fulcrum pins?
What is the caster, camber and toe settings you have?
Are you using a stock steering wheel?
What tyres are you running?

 

[sunalp]

How are you going to mount the engine?

 

[Bill Blue]

It is possible to "Tigerise" your Alpine crossmember. I did it by using MGB Rack & Pinion as well as slighty modded MGB steering arms and GM "Metric" calipers along with appropriate rotors. The end result - I can turn the wheels to full lock and still hand push it around my shop area.
CAUTION: My installation placed the Rack so it interfears with the radiator. Had to use a cross flow rad that mounts above the rack, but stays below hood.
Bill

 

[Barry]

I would like to add rack & pinion steering to my Alpine V.

Understood. The Series Alpine steering system dates from an 85 year old small English family sedan and does not provide modern feel.

Can a tiger front suspension cradle complete with suspension and steering rack be fitted to an Alpine V with it's 4 cylinder?

Yes, the Tiger front suspension crossmember is essentially a bolt-in for late (3/IV/V) Series Alpines. You would need to replace the Series Alpine steering column / steering box with a Tiger (or similar) steering column and steering shaft with u-joints and you would need to add the Series Alpine style engine mount "towers" to the Tiger front suspension crossmember.

Are there other ways to accomplish this?

Yes, you can do what Rootes did. The Tiger front suspension and steering system was created by cutting two big-ass notches in the front of a late Series Alpine front suspension crossmember, mounting a steering rack in the big-ass notches, replacing the "rear steer" steering arms with "front steer" steering arms and replacing the steering box on the front of the Series Alpine steering column with a bearing and a couple of universal joints / steering shaft to connect the steering wheel to the steering rack. The easy button would be to use a complete donor steering column / steering shaft / u-joint package from a Tiger. You would keep (rather than remove) the the engine mount "towers" for the Series Alpine 4-banger engine and you would use the Series Alpine front springs rather than replacing them with the higher spring rate Tiger springs.

Suggestions and comments welcome.
Thank you

Just because you can does not mean that you should. The Series Alpine steering system certainly lacks modern feel, but the Tiger steering system is a hot mess with terrible (reversed Ackermann) steering angles. The combination of the extremely high (about 2-3/8" with narrow factory wheels and even more with wider wheels) positive scrub radius of the Series Alpine (and Tiger) suspension layout and the reversed Ackermann steering angles of the Tiger steering layout results in very high steering effort at slow speed and side loads that can lead to structural failure.

The inherent problem with the Tiger steering system is that the steering rack must be located about 5-6 inches forward of a straight line between the outer tie-rod end pivot points. Using a different steering rack or different steering arms does not change the fact that the steering rack is in the wrong zip code.

 

[JWP]

Wonderful advice and comments. Thank you all. This is my first time using the 'Forums'. Being a new Alpine owner and member I believe the help and guidance of the members will be very beneficial to me.

 

[spmdr]

My $.02

I suspect just quicker steering would give the "feel" you are looking for.

The first thing I would try is change the steering arm length(s).

...Like what Shelby (SA) did with the early GT350s.

DW

 

[Bill Blue]

I did not use a Tiger steering column. Used a Series II steering shaft, cut to extend just past the firewall. Supported the cut end with a spherical ball bearing, carried in a pair of stamped bearing holders, mounted on either side of the firewall. From there, it was a straight shot to the rack input steering shaft, using a pair of U-joints.
Bill

 

[Aladin Sane]

I have an MGB rack mounted in roughly the tiger fashion. I used a jegs tilt column. Since it has a 2" diameter shaft, I had to modify the drop bracket and added a sphere mount on the firewall. Then like Bill said, two ujoints and you are done.

 

[Warren]

Something that was failed to be mentioned earlier was the availability of Tiger cross members. I recall being at Dale's and seeing them stacked like cords of wood. But the hard part to get is the steering column.
Good to see some nice changes being made.

 

[Bill Blue]

Tiger steering column. What did I give up by using a slightly modded Alpine column? I ask because I know nothing about the Tigers, especially the steering columns. In my design, the firewall bearing (3/4" steel), carries the load while the lower end of the column shell rides on the 3/4" shaft, via a plastic bearing. The upper end is mounted in the stock Alpine column mount, It manages to hold the steering very securely and is a good use for an otherwise junk stock steering column/box.
Bill

 

[DanR]

Bill, You did not give up anything. The uppers are the same. It is only different once thru the firewall.

Your sleeves and bushings are better than the old bicycle bearings and thin racers in the stock Sunbeams (Alpine and Tigers). Probably never ever need to change out your replacements.... I hae them in all my Alpines and include in the EPS.