Electrical system

[Rsgwynn1]

This may be premature, for I haven't even taken delivery of my Alpine yet; I'm just trying to plan ahead--looking for parts on eBay, etc. Still, I'd like to know how much modification of the electrical system (engine excepted) will need to be done to make the gauges work. I had an MGB, which was positive ground (interesting story there), and a Tiger, which was, as I recall, negative. What was the Alpine, and will any of the gauges work after a conversion, or will I have to replace all of them?

Or is there some kind of after-market wiring harness that will work better with the 2.8 conversion?

I do recall that the Lucas system on the Tiger was . . . tempermental. For example, the wipers wouldn't work unless the windshield was wet. I had to spray the windshield with a hose to pass an NC inspection in 1969! The horn had a way of coming on in public situations, after having been silent for weeks.

Did Lucas put the electrical system in the Lancaster bomber? Scary thought.

Sam

 

[64beam]

Hi Sam,

What year is your Alpine? Up until the series IV the wiring was positive earth, and the series V (possibly the late series IV's - not sure) being negative earth. Lucas wiring does'nt have a good name, but modifications can be done to the wiring to make it better. I am currently making some mods to my Alpine's electrics adding fuse blocks and relays, etc. If you are going V6 you should go with negative earth.

Regards, Robin.

 

[Rsgwynn1]

Thanks, Robin. It's a 1967 Mark V, which I plan to convert to 2.8 power. Any advice you can give will be appreciated. The car I've bought (which I won't pick up and bring home for four weeks) has a set of new gauges, but I'm not sure how they'll work in the new environment.

 

[Wombat]

Sam

Alpines changed to Negative earth when the Series V was introduced with an alternator. All gauges on your car should work with negative earth. I converted my Series IV from positive earth to negative earth and the only gauge I had to play with was the tacho. The fuel and temp gauges don't care which way the current runs through them. There may be enough adjustment of the tacho to make it work with the V6, otherwise you will need to go for something aftermarket. Also the temperature vs resistance characteristics of the V6 tempetature sender may not match the Alpine gauge, but I think there is some form of standard for these things. In an earlier thread in the Modified Alpines Forum, there was some discussion on aftermarket wiring harnesses.

 

[64beam]

Thanks, Robin. It's a 1967 Mark V, which I plan to convert to 2.8 power. Any advice you can give will be appreciated. The car I've bought (which I won't pick up and bring home for four weeks) has a set of new gauges, but I'm not sure how they'll work in the new environment.

Hi Sam,

Your car is already negative earth, so everything should be sweet. Good luck with the conversion once you get it home.

Regards, Robin.

 

[61Alpine]

When I did my V6 conversion I totally stripped out the wiring because it was so brittle that when I would move it the covering would crack or fall off.
I used the Painless Performance 18 circuit universal wiring harness. I was pretty easy to install just following the directions.

 

[64beam]

When I did my V6 conversion I totally stripped out the wiring because it was so brittle that when I would move it the covering would crack or fall off.
I used the Painless Performance 18 circuit universal wiring harness. I was pretty easy to install just following the directions.

Hi Rob,

The painless wiring harnesses look very nice. Did you still have to connect it into the existing harness or did you do a complete rewire? Cars definately need more than two fuses to protect the electrical circuit. Did you separate all the lighting, etc?

Regards, Robin.

 

[Bill Blue]

I used the EZ Wiring 20 circuit mini. About $100 less than the Painless, very good quality. The only problem I have encountered is the kit is made for the fuse box to be located under the dash on the left side , I placed mine near the stock location, so some wires had to be stretched.

If the V6 is anything like my Pinto engine, the wiring is basically opposite the Alpine. When that is combined with old brittle wire and crappy fusing of the stock harness, I think it is advisable to go with one of the after market kits. Oh, yeah, it seems the EZ kit is about one gauge heavier and has thicker insulation than the Alpine harness. That is good and bad, good from a safety standpoint, makes a BIG wad of stiff wires to deal with.

I've been working on rewiring my car for about 6 weeks, think it is about done. Not a saturday afternoon job. Took me weeks to decide just how I was going to do it. It would also help if I could get things right the first time.

Bill

 

[61Alpine]

I totally tore out the old and in with the new. I like the Painless, the fuse box in under the dash out of the weather. All wires are color coded makes for an easy installation.

 

[Bill Blue]

Rob, where did you mount the fuse box? I could not find a spot that I thought I would be able to access without standing on my head or taking the seat out. If I'd mounted the EZ fuse box inside things would have been considerably easier as that is where it is designed to be mounted.

Bill

 

[jumpinjan]

Or is there some kind of after-market wiring harness that will work better with the 2.8 conversion?

Work better? I don't get it. Your V6 could use all the same wires all the way to the 1725's coil and run.
Universal wiring harnesses - ????? Don't you people know that new Alpine wiring harnesses are available? All this extra time used to re-engineer these cars for what?

 

[Bill Blue]

Jan, don't know about the guys with the V6, but electrically, my car only remotely resembles an Alpine. I am convinced it was easier to start from scratch than modify an inadequate new stock item.

Bill

 

[64beam]

Hi Forum,

It seems there are a few people who have changed from Lucas (painful ) to painless. I have done my own fuse block with the help from Narva electrical accessories. It's a bit messy at the moment, but it works. I will post a few photo's of my efforts. The first photo showing the fuse blocks/relay and the second a tidy engine bay loom using spiral bound.

Regards, Robin.

 

[Jeff Scoville]

Old or new, the 2 fuse system is about 18 fuses less than I like!

 

[65beam]

wiring harness

what are you guys doing to your cars that you need all these fuses and relays?i have to agree with jan that the new harness for the alpines is fine for normal use.i have replaced the harness in my series 5 and have installed a new series 5 harness in my series 4. it has a radio,halogen head lamps and driving lights.i never have a problem with electrical's.never have had a problem that i remember and i've been behind the wheels of these cars since the sixties.

 

[64beam]

what are you guys doing to your cars that you need all these fuses and relays?i have to agree with jan that the new harness for the alpines is fine for normal use.i have replaced the harness in my series 5 and have installed a new series 5 harness in my series 4. it has a radio,halogen head lamps and driving lights.i never have a problem with electrical's.never have had a problem that i remember and i've been behind the wheels of these cars since the sixties.

It's called circuit protection. Sure 18 fuses may be a bit over the top, but being an electrician believe me it's well founded. The way 1/1.5mm wire (not sure what wire gauge they relate to in the US,etc.) is being protected by 30amp fuses when it would be lucky to carry 10amps is a fire waiting to happen. I'm sure a few people have found this out at some time or another and have cost them a rewire. There is however, many examples where car's have run faultlessly since their manufacture. Each to their own I say.

Regards, Robin.

 

[Nickodell]

Robin: Depends whether you are quoting metric wire measurments in diameter or square section. If diameter,:

1.00 mm = 18 American Wire Gauge (AWG)
1.50 = 15 AWG (but only even sizes are used, so 16 AWG is the closest)

It always amazed me that the lighting circuits in so many cars up to the late 60s were not fused, considering how far and how many wires are involved and how many opportunities for a short.

Dismissing the need for fuse protection for every circuit, matched to the load and wire diameter, sounds to me like the Titanic syndrome: "everything fine; what's all this nonsense about icebergs!"

 

[64beam]

Robin: Depends whether you are quoting metric wire measurments in diameter or square section. If diameter,:

1.00 mm = 18 American Wire Gauge (AWG)
1.50 = 15 AWG (but only even sizes are used, so 16 AWG is the closest)

It always amazed me that the lighting circuits in so many cars up to the late 60s were not fused, considering how far and how many wires are involved and how many opportunities for a short.

Dismissing the need for fuse protection for every circuit, matched to the load and wire diameter, sounds to me like the Titanic syndrome: "everything fine; what's all this nonsense about icebergs!"

Thanks Nick, as we are metric down under I was never taught international wire colour/size codes. As an electrician, I do come across some old imperial wire sizes, but that is very rare these days. The Alpines are more than likely imperial sizes as well (meaning lower amp rating to the metric equivalent).

Regards, Robin.

 

[Bill Blue]

Robin, I don't think there is any standarization on wire colors, at least on autos. Seems that by default, black is ground, sometimes green is ground. But that seems to be about it.

Looking at the Series V schematic, only one fuse actually is used. One fuse is dedicated to the interior lights, a maximum of three bulbs.

Bill

 

[Jaars]

Well, not completely true. There is some standard in wiring colors.
Robert

7 Main colors, are allocated to the circuits. The practice of feeding certain of the accessories through the ignition switch and auxiliary lighting circuits through the side and tail lamp switch is recommended, so that the side and tail lamp switch and ignition switch wires become feeds to other circuits or, master switch wires.
Cable Colors
BROWN Battery circuit. From battery or starter switch to ammeter or control box and (with compensated voltage control) feeding lighting and ignition switches (and radio, when fitted) from control box terminal. Also, from starter switch to electric clock, inspection sockets and battery auxiliaries fuse (from which are fed electric horns, cigar lighter, interior lights, etc.).
YELLOW Generator circuit. From generator terminal to corresponding control box terminal and to ignition warning light.
WHITE Ignition circuit and all requirements essential when ignition is switched on but which do not require fusing, e.g., electric fuel pump, starter solenoid switch, etc.
GREEN Auxiliary circuits fed through ignition switch and protected by the ignition auxiliaries fuse, e.g., stop lamp, fuel gauge, direction indicators, windscreen wipers, etc.
BLUE Headlamp circuits. Fed through terminal on lighting switch.
RED Side and tail lamp circuits. Fed from terminal on lighting switch. Included in these circuits are fog lamps, panel lights and other lamps required only when the side lamps are in use.
BLACK Ground circuits. If a component is not internally grounded, a cable must be taken to a good ground on the chassis.