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EFI with sidedrafttbi.com?
- Thread starter rootesrefuge
- Start date
RootesRacer
Donation Time
The quality of the TWM stuff is pretty good.
The finish on the TWM air doors is that of a fine sand cast, not as good a die cast or a machined billet (like the jenvey air doors).
The Jenvey air doors look nicer being they are anodized, but other than looks the quality level is about the same, and the function would be identical otherwise.
Also I am pretty sure the Jenvey air doors are double the cost, if not more due to the poor US to UK exchange rate.
RootesRacer
Donation Time
What I am saying is that the TWM (or Jenvey) setup, with 4 modern port style injectors, will outperform, give a tighter more consistent calibration, give better atomization and probably give better mileage all things the same as compared to running the CD150 carbs and the GM 1bbl TBI injectors in each carb.
The bottom line to my post is that the injectors they (sidedrafttbi) are using, are the worst possible choice, and oversized for the application, which is a double bad IMO.
With regards to Jenvey, the TWM unit is simply a US made, and US priced DCOE bolt on air door. If you live in Europe or are really impressed with the Bling Bling look of the Jenveys, then they are the ones for you.
64beam
Donation Time
Hi guys,
Just surfing Ebay and found a couple of Dellorto throttle bodies with injectors, but looking at the manifold side i'm not sure they would fit a Weber/Dellorto side draught manifold. Have a look anyway.
Here is the link below:
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Pair-of-Fuel...ryZ72469QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Regards, Robin.
Just surfing Ebay and found a couple of Dellorto throttle bodies with injectors, but looking at the manifold side i'm not sure they would fit a Weber/Dellorto side draught manifold. Have a look anyway.
Here is the link below:
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Pair-of-Fuel...ryZ72469QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Regards, Robin.
RootesRacer
Donation Time
No, these are OEM airdoors that bolt directly to the head (triumph dolomite/lotus).
The dont share the weber/dellorto DHLA mounting pattern.
RootesRacer
Donation Time
Look what TWM has back in the offering.
http://www.twminduction.com/ThrottleBody/ThrottleBodySU-FR.html
These NEW throttle bodies use port style injectors, which is the way to go for something like this (as opposed to the TBI injectors mentioned in this thread).
They are WAY out in left field as far as pricing, perhaps that will change.
Originally, TWM offered a similar product that used those crappy TBI injectors that the sidedrafttbi system uses.
I head the unfortunate pleasure to have to tune a few before most of the customers complained about idle quality and fuel economy and they went back to carbs.
http://www.twminduction.com/ThrottleBody/ThrottleBodySU-FR.html
These NEW throttle bodies use port style injectors, which is the way to go for something like this (as opposed to the TBI injectors mentioned in this thread).
They are WAY out in left field as far as pricing, perhaps that will change.
Originally, TWM offered a similar product that used those crappy TBI injectors that the sidedrafttbi system uses.
I head the unfortunate pleasure to have to tune a few before most of the customers complained about idle quality and fuel economy and they went back to carbs.
RootesRacer
Donation Time
Dont know if any of you have seen this, but its a MUCH better way to go since it uses port style injectors and is modular, and the prices seem in bounds.
http://www.extrudabody.biz/servlet/the-167/SU-dsh-Universal-45mm-Throttle-Body/Detail
http://www.extrudabody.biz/servlet/the-167/SU-dsh-Universal-45mm-Throttle-Body/Detail
RootesRacer
Donation Time
If you look at post #28, those modular throttle bodies have adapters to let you put them on a DCOE flange.
Overall they look more cost effective than DCOE/Dellorto/PHH equiv. throttle bodies from:
TWM
Lumenition
Jenvey
rootesrefuge
Donation Time
Haven't had a chance to update lately, so thought I'd inform you folk on my progress.
Replaced the whole exhaust system, and had an O2 sensor fitting welded into the downpipe. I decided to use a heated sensor and place it in the Y at the base of the firewall so it would read the combined exhaust from both downpipes.
Fuel tank has been cleaned and fitted with a return line. New steel lines from back to front are in place, as are the fuel pump and pre- and post-pump filters. Adjustable regulator is in place in the engine bay, and the last fuel lines to the injector adapters go on today. I should be able to add fuel and power up the pump to check for leaks at that point. My injector hunt came up with Saturn 1.9 TBI injectors, which are usually run at about 30psi. I'll only be running at about half that pressure, so the fuel volume should be close enough that the Megasquirt will have no trouble keeping the fuel trim in line.
Next comes the electronics and wiring harness.....
Jon Arzt
Omaha, NE
Replaced the whole exhaust system, and had an O2 sensor fitting welded into the downpipe. I decided to use a heated sensor and place it in the Y at the base of the firewall so it would read the combined exhaust from both downpipes.
Fuel tank has been cleaned and fitted with a return line. New steel lines from back to front are in place, as are the fuel pump and pre- and post-pump filters. Adjustable regulator is in place in the engine bay, and the last fuel lines to the injector adapters go on today. I should be able to add fuel and power up the pump to check for leaks at that point. My injector hunt came up with Saturn 1.9 TBI injectors, which are usually run at about 30psi. I'll only be running at about half that pressure, so the fuel volume should be close enough that the Megasquirt will have no trouble keeping the fuel trim in line.
Next comes the electronics and wiring harness.....
Jon Arzt
Omaha, NE
Jon, are you concerned about lack of fuel breakup at the low pressure? I think I would start off with 30 psi and if it overfuels at idle, decrease pressure only to what is necessary to get it to idle properly.
What is the capacity of the Saturn TBI injector? I tried a search, but Google did not handle the question very gracefully.
Bill
What is the capacity of the Saturn TBI injector? I tried a search, but Google did not handle the question very gracefully.
Bill
rootesrefuge
Donation Time
The 1.9 Saturn makes 85hp @ 30psi with a single injector, and the injector is the same design as a regular GM TBI which usually runs at 12psi. I'm figuring on starting at 15psi and tweaking the pressure and pulse width. I can always change the injectors if I need to, and the Megasquirt controller is very adaptable.
Speaking of the controller, I finished building the kit last week. The module passed all it's tests and is ready to be wired in. Next comes making the wiring harness... it's just that it's a bit cold out at the moment! The Arrow had to come out of the garage to make room for the Alpine for the winter. I'd rather work in the cold than let the Alpine sit outside in a Nebraska winter!
Jon Arzt
Omaha, NE USA
Speaking of the controller, I finished building the kit last week. The module passed all it's tests and is ready to be wired in. Next comes making the wiring harness... it's just that it's a bit cold out at the moment! The Arrow had to come out of the garage to make room for the Alpine for the winter. I'd rather work in the cold than let the Alpine sit outside in a Nebraska winter!
Jon Arzt
Omaha, NE USA
rootesrefuge
Donation Time
Finally - update time:
Now that winter is gone from the midwest and the weather is being cooperative, I'm back to work on the Arrow. Finished wiring it up this past week, and after a few minor bugs got the thing running on EFI yesterday!
So far, idle behaviour has been good, MUCH better than I was able to get with the smog carbs. I'm still in the process of tuning all the fuel parameters in the Megasquirt ECU so haven't taken it on the road yet, but if initial results are any indication this should be a very successful project.
Hopefully I'll be able to give more frequent updates with more good news.... fingers crossed!
Jon Arzt
Omaha, NE
Now that winter is gone from the midwest and the weather is being cooperative, I'm back to work on the Arrow. Finished wiring it up this past week, and after a few minor bugs got the thing running on EFI yesterday!
So far, idle behaviour has been good, MUCH better than I was able to get with the smog carbs. I'm still in the process of tuning all the fuel parameters in the Megasquirt ECU so haven't taken it on the road yet, but if initial results are any indication this should be a very successful project.
Hopefully I'll be able to give more frequent updates with more good news.... fingers crossed!
Jon Arzt
Omaha, NE
rootesrefuge
Donation Time
EFI update time again -
I've been using the Arrow pretty much daily and working things out. The car's electrical system is quite "noisy", so I've added a noise filter to the ECU's power circuit. Driveablility has been great, the only remaining problem is one that developed as I fine-tuned the fuel management. Now that I've got the fuel metering almost spot on, it's very hard to cold start. The electrical noise of the starter throws false RPM signals, making the ECU think the engine is already running, not still cranking. The ECU responds by reducing fuel and the car is reluctant to start. As a test I gave it one quick squirt of starting fluid just before cranking and it started instantly, proving the problem is not enough fuel as opposed to too much. So my next move is to replace the negative cable and the ground wires with braided cables (aircraft style, reduces interference) and possibly try my spare starter to see if it makes any difference.
All in all, this has been a very interesting project, and I'm sure at some point I'll do the same to my Alpine, maybe even the Humber. I haven't been tracking mileage yet as I'm still working on the tuning, but I haven't had to fill the tank anywhere near as often as I used to. With today's prices that's a good thing!
Jon Arzt
Omaha, NE
I've been using the Arrow pretty much daily and working things out. The car's electrical system is quite "noisy", so I've added a noise filter to the ECU's power circuit. Driveablility has been great, the only remaining problem is one that developed as I fine-tuned the fuel management. Now that I've got the fuel metering almost spot on, it's very hard to cold start. The electrical noise of the starter throws false RPM signals, making the ECU think the engine is already running, not still cranking. The ECU responds by reducing fuel and the car is reluctant to start. As a test I gave it one quick squirt of starting fluid just before cranking and it started instantly, proving the problem is not enough fuel as opposed to too much. So my next move is to replace the negative cable and the ground wires with braided cables (aircraft style, reduces interference) and possibly try my spare starter to see if it makes any difference.
All in all, this has been a very interesting project, and I'm sure at some point I'll do the same to my Alpine, maybe even the Humber. I haven't been tracking mileage yet as I'm still working on the tuning, but I haven't had to fill the tank anywhere near as often as I used to. With today's prices that's a good thing!
Jon Arzt
Omaha, NE
RootesRacer
Donation Time
Jon,
I'll bet your issue is with the trigger, not so much with the power being noisy.
MS is notorious for needing a very clean and very well behaved trigger in order to work properly.
What are you using as the trigger (points, pertronix, ???)
I'll bet your issue is with the trigger, not so much with the power being noisy.
MS is notorious for needing a very clean and very well behaved trigger in order to work properly.
What are you using as the trigger (points, pertronix, ???)
rootesrefuge
Donation Time
I'm using the stock distributor with a Pertronix, though I also tried an MSD box using the Pertronix as a trigger, and the MSD tach out to signal RPM to the MS. Either way didn't make any difference, and without the MSD is a lot less cluttered.
I had to use low impedance injectors due to the limited space in the carb bodies, and filtered and modified the power into the MS to get it as clean as possible. The only time I get any signal spikes now is during cranking, so I'm working on cleaning them up.
I had to use low impedance injectors due to the limited space in the carb bodies, and filtered and modified the power into the MS to get it as clean as possible. The only time I get any signal spikes now is during cranking, so I'm working on cleaning them up.
RootesRacer
Donation Time
You are going to find that triggering off a coil is a very bad way to trigger your fuel controller.
What I hear is there are some filter mods that you can solder on the board to better tolerate the noisy high voltage trigger, but I would recommend to you to use the pertronics to drive a basic pull up resistor, then use the ignition output to drive both MS trigger and some other ignition that accepts a "points" type input.
Either that or ditch the points dizzy and install one of the electronic MG distributors, with its own box, and use the built in VR sensor to trigger the MS input as well as the ignition box.
What I hear is there are some filter mods that you can solder on the board to better tolerate the noisy high voltage trigger, but I would recommend to you to use the pertronics to drive a basic pull up resistor, then use the ignition output to drive both MS trigger and some other ignition that accepts a "points" type input.
Either that or ditch the points dizzy and install one of the electronic MG distributors, with its own box, and use the built in VR sensor to trigger the MS input as well as the ignition box.
I seem to remember looking at a friends old mercedes that was fuel injected with a points distributor and the ecm was triggered off the coil. I don't know what may have been inside the ecm to deal with that signal, but it was a factory setup.
My discovery is fuel only efi from the factory and has just a resistor between the coil and ecm, but it does have a magnetic pickup and external ignition module. I replaced it all with MSD junk and had to use the tach adapter for the EFI to work right, maybe that will do it for you.
Howell makes fuel only TBI setups for lots of vehicles and includes a filter, but I've never messed with one and haven't been able to find a real answer on exactly what the filter consists of.
My discovery is fuel only efi from the factory and has just a resistor between the coil and ecm, but it does have a magnetic pickup and external ignition module. I replaced it all with MSD junk and had to use the tach adapter for the EFI to work right, maybe that will do it for you.
Howell makes fuel only TBI setups for lots of vehicles and includes a filter, but I've never messed with one and haven't been able to find a real answer on exactly what the filter consists of.
Ken Ellis
Donation Time
Jon,
It may be time to hook up an oscilloscope to some points in your system to see what you're up against. I'm pretty sure that signal conditioning can tame whatever is on the inputs or power feeds, but you'll need to know the specifics. Do you have a scope, or know of an electronics hobbiest with a spare afternoon?
Ken
It may be time to hook up an oscilloscope to some points in your system to see what you're up against. I'm pretty sure that signal conditioning can tame whatever is on the inputs or power feeds, but you'll need to know the specifics. Do you have a scope, or know of an electronics hobbiest with a spare afternoon?
Ken