Diagnosis help with Front End Shake

[mferris]

Things were looking great today - even did something mostly cosmetic - added seatbelts! then it all went south...

After 3 months of getting the engine and brakes reliable and safe (after 20 years of storage) - I took my SV out on asphalt for the first time today.

At 40 mph - a horrid shake starts in the front end and does not dissipate until I get under 20mph.

I can turn the passenger front wheel left and right ~1" while stationary.

I'm presuming that there are tie-rod ends and/or bushings that need to get replaced/rebuilt yet I'm more intimidated by this vs. the rebuilding brakes/fuel system/carb/timing/valve adj that I've done to the car already.

1. It is advisable to take this to a (trusted) mechanic who I have had to previous work on modern suspensions for diagnosis, or should I just decide to rebuild it myself without proper diagnosis?

2. If I decide just to start a rebuild, are there some simple things I can replace first (given the symptoms above) or should I just plan for a full rebuild?

3. If I do decide to do an entire front end, what should I replace?

-Mike

 

[RootesRooter]

Yes, you could need some front-end work. Alpines have pretty sloppy steering by modern standards. A diagnosis by a good front end shop is recommended to determine which parts are actually worn out.

But after 20 years of sitting in storage, it's also possible the tires have a broken belt or two. "Horrid shaking" is more often symptom of bad tire(s) than a worn tie rod end.

 

[chard]

Check the simple things 1st. Wheels running true/balance & tyres. Try front to back swap, if your tyres are more than 8 yrs old you should be replacing them anyway.

 

[RootesRooter]

If you do the front-to-back swap, or if you just continue drive it as is, be very careful. If the belts are shot, the whole tire can blow out without warning. I had this happen with a "bargain" set of Pirrelli's I put on my Tiger. On a return trip from a Tigers United convention, one rear started shaking badly on the freeway, then blew out as I coasted down the exit ramp. I put on a spare. Within 15 miles, the car started shaking again and the other rear blew as I came to a stop. Turned out the tires had formerly been on a car sitting in place for three years.

 

[PETER CLAYTON]

Is the movement only on the passenger/right hand side? if so its likely a joint is either insecure or failing. Also if you jack up the front & spin the wheels you should be able to see any distortion in the tyres(sorry tires).
If in doubt don't drive,all your good work could be swiftly undone.

 

[chard]

Don't apologise I think Sunbeam definitely fitted TYRES

 

[beamS3]

I have encountered a similar shimmy with old brake hoses breaking down. I presume you changed the hoses - a good precaution even if it fails to solve your "Shakes"

Bob
beamS3

 

[bulldurham]

Mike, don't forget to check the torque on the lug nuts. Will not take much looseness to create a serious shimmy.
If you want to do changes w/ the tie rods, ball joints let me know and I will provide some moral support and what I know, as I have done mine.

 

[Ron67Alpine]

Ball joints and tie rod ends are not as hard as I thought they would be. I did have to get a shop to remove the uppers from the control arms (A arms), and press in the new. Do not get VB upper ball joints, they are too big to press into the control arm. The lowers and tie rod ends from VB seem ok. Use a good separator, the "pickle forks" from Harbor Freight are garbage.
Good luck
Ron

 

[mferris]

Thanks - I'm presuming that if any of this turns out to be the issue - I might as well just go ahead and change upper, lower, and tie-rod ends. Or will one of those ruin my day if I try it and it's not really necessary?

-Mike

 

[Ron67Alpine]

A few weeks ago I lost one of my lower ball joints, damaged upper wheel well/fender, waited hours for a tow truck that could take a car that couldn't be rolled. Luckily it was not at speed, in traffic. They are probably 40yo, no zirk fittings for grease replacement. Doing them all at once is a good idea, wether that's your problem or not. Hardest part was breaking the friction fittings. Which isn't hard at all w/proper tools.
Ron

 

[Cactusmasher]

Front end help

So far nobody mentioned this, so I will toss it in for consideration. On many of the Alpines I have owned or worked on, the center cross tube rubber mounted tapered pins are deteriorated to the point that they no longer operate as intended. This is the part of the steering system that crosses over the bell housing, behind the block. The age of our Alpines is the main cause of the deterioration of the rubber. There are no known replacements for this part. Some of the enterprising SOACA members have pressed out the old tapered pins and rubber mounts and replaced them with fresh units pressed into the old position and they work fine. I do not recall exactly which modern auto they are for, but I'm sure somebody on this forum will know.

This may not be the primary cause of your problem, but I'd bet a dollar to a donut that it is a contributing factor. I use the cross over tube supplied with the Jose V6 conversion kit and whatever the tapered pins are that he uses fit very well and certainly tighten up the steering. I would suggest the entire steering and front end be gone through and all bushings be replaced. You will be amazed at the difference in the way it drives. Good luck with your project.

 

[mferris]

Thanks Jim - I have Jose's kit waiting for me to finish the new engine. I wonder if I can use the cross-over tube with the 1725 in the interim (if that is indeed a big part of the problem. I'll look at it next weekend and see if I can figure it out.

-Mike

 

[Ken Ellis]

Mike,
Although I'm not a "darksider", I do believe the cross link will work in the vast canyon that exists between the standard engine and the firewall.

Meaning, I believe it was designed to work in much more crowded conditions, so it should work fine as a substitute.

If I'm proved wrong, I will humbly slink back to the world of standard Alpines.


Here is some discussion from awhile ago regarding poly steering linkage bushings... follow the thread down from the post in the link -- it's towards the bottom.

http://www.sunbeamalpine.org/forum/showpost.php?p=109899&postcount=1

 

[V6 JOSE]

Hi Mike,

Your modified center link will work with the stock engine, since it is moved back away from the engine, to where it clears the firewall by about 1/4" when adjusted correctly.

I seriously doubt that the shimmy is caused by loose center link bushings. Worn out suspension bushings, tie rod ends, or ball joints could be the cause, but I suspect that wheels that are either out of round, unbalanced, or bad tires, (as someone already suggested) is the real culprit.

Jose

p.s. If you were running wire wheels, I would point at them as the cause.

 

[Tom H]

This link to the previous discussion will work better:

http://www.sunbeamalpine.org/forum/showthread.php?t=16470

And Rootes Post Vintage Spares stilll sells replacement cross tubes with ball joints and zirk fittings at the ends.

http://www.rootesparts.com/id103.htm

Tom

 

[mferris]

As an update and follow on question:

Jacked up the front end today held the steering in place and looked for play when moving the wheel left/right. Didn't see much of anything on either side. There *may* be some in the cross-tube, but it would be on the order of millimeters or so. The seals on all the joints/ends look fresh - so I presume they have been replaced at some point.

Then I rotated passenger wheels front to back, ran it 5 miles, then the other side. This made no difference in the results (some good runs, some bad runs) below so I've eliminated the wheels/tires as being the primary cause (yes they need to be renewed - get isolate the issue).

On some jaunts getting I got up to 60mph without any shimmy/shake at all. But on others when I am likely hitting a rough spot in the pavement at speeds as low at 35mph, it would sent the steering wheel/car shaking.

I guess I'll start with the cross-tube since I have it handy in Jose's kit.

Jose/anyone, I looked at the steering cross-tube with the threaded ends for the ends in the kit - is this all I need to replace the existing rod/ends - or will I need to find additional bushings to go into the arm that the ends fit into?

-M

 

[anduril3019]

One more piece of advice in the long list here.

When you jack up the front end you need to put jack stands under the ends of the A-arms so that the suspension is supporting the weight of the car. Sometimes with the suspension dangling, any play can be hard to detect because it is taken up by the extended suspension geometry.

Just my $.02

 

[gordonra]

The crosslink rod from Jose's kit is all you need after you remove the original and the worn out bushings. My original crosslink was exactly 21" on centers, so I simply set the tie rod ends on the Jose version to be the same. Since the tie rod ends pivot, you will need to reference something that is a machined area on the tie rod housings (such as the cap on the back side) when you make this measurement. Make sure you have a minimum of three threads engagement on each tie rod end, then tighten the jam nuts.

Install the rod using the nylock nuts that should have come with the kit, and you should be in good shape.

It's quite likely that you'll have a tuff time removing the old tube. I had to destroy mine to get it out.

Good luck! I'd say "May the force be with you", but that doesn't seem quite appropriate since you are considering "Darkside" components!

Rich

As an update and follow on question:

Jacked up the front end today held the steering in place and looked for play when moving the wheel left/right. Didn't see much of anything on either side. There *may* be some in the cross-tube, but it would be on the order of millimeters or so. The seals on all the joints/ends look fresh - so I presume they have been replaced at some point.

Then I rotated passenger wheels front to back, ran it 5 miles, then the other side. This made no difference in the results (some good runs, some bad runs) below so I've eliminated the wheels/tires as being the primary cause (yes they need to be renewed - get isolate the issue).

On some jaunts getting I got up to 60mph without any shimmy/shake at all. But on others when I am likely hitting a rough spot in the pavement at speeds as low at 35mph, it would sent the steering wheel/car shaking.

I guess I'll start with the cross-tube since I have it handy in Jose's kit.

Jose/anyone, I looked at the steering cross-tube with the threaded ends for the ends in the kit - is this all I need to replace the existing rod/ends - or will I need to find additional bushings to go into the arm that the ends fit into?

-M

 

[Ken Ellis]

I'm going to guess upper ball joint, primarily because that's what' swrong with my car, and it has similar speed-dependent symptoms.

Jack up car by the A-frame, then grab the wheel top and bottom and muscle it to see if there's play in/out. If there is, there's a limited number of suspects -- ball joints, wheel bearings, and not much else, since the steering gear is basically not "in circuit" at that point.

If no movement is detected in the above step, move the jack to the front crossmember, so the suspension hangs unloaded. Attempt to move wheel by muscling on top/bottom again. Discovering play here (but not on the above step) would point to a-arm bushings, or the mounts for same.

As usual, use jackstands or other stout supports in case your manipulations cause the car to dive off the jack... and watch those hands.