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C.R. says hybrids not worth the money

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Not worth the money?

Just read the article. I did not see that CR made that statement. The test vehicle did not live up to the 47 mpg promise and in general, they did not like the car.

But truth aside, how can fancy wheels or $50,000 pickups used as one passenger cars be "worth the money"?

Nobody seems to care about the economic sense of a buyers choice until alternate fuels are mentioned. Then, for some reason, it has to be economically justifiable to the luddites.

Bill
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
Wont stop people of that mindset from "saving the world" though.

Even when PITAs like me point out that the batteries contain rare minerals that have to be imported from unstable parts of the world, and pose their own hazardous waste when they have to be disposed of in a few years.

When the lease on my Camry ended I was invited to test drive one of the hybrids. Foolishly, I had imagined that the designers would have actually boosted the acceleration performance by adding the electric motor output to the torque of the gas engine, making it quicker. I didn't realize that the gas engine was down-rated from that in my non-hybrid Camry, so when I trod on the accelerator I wondered what the heck we were towing. It was noticeably slower off the mark and clumsy in handling. And that was the car that CR said did better than the Accord. So I said "no thanks, I'll stick to dinosaur fuel."
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
Not worth the money?

Just read the article. I did not see that CR made that statement. The test vehicle did not live up to the 47 mpg promise and in general, they did not like the car.

But truth aside, how can fancy wheels or $50,000 pickups used as one passenger cars be "worth the money"?

Nobody seems to care about the economic sense of a buyers choice until alternate fuels are mentioned. Then, for some reason, it has to be economically justifiable to the luddites.

Bill

The economic folly is the sense that the hybrid will have a break even against the non hybrid vehicle which costs much less.

Hybrids for the most part are a class of vehicle intended to interest those whose common sense has been overwhelmed by the ill conceived notion that
technology has saved the world.

Want some great and relevant entertainment?
Watch the South Park episode named "smug alert".
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Once again, why does it have to make sense? There is plenty of poop on cars and trucks that do not make sense. For about 95% of the market, the SUV concept is nonsense. Why not talk about that? Spending thousands of extra dollars on a vehicle that gets lousy mileage, has no luggage space, will tip over in a heartbeat and instills a false sense of safety, all to avoid a tow once every 20 years. That makes economic sense?

Why pick on the guys that want a hybrid?

Bill
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
Once again, why does it have to make sense? There is plenty of poop on cars and trucks that do not make sense. For about 95% of the market, the SUV concept is nonsense. Why not talk about that? Spending thousands of extra dollars on a vehicle that gets lousy mileage, has no luggage space, will tip over in a heartbeat and instills a false sense of safety, all to avoid a tow once every 20 years. That makes economic sense?

Why pick on the guys that want a hybrid?

Bill

I'm not picking on the guys that want the hybrid, I'm picking on the guys that make them and market them to the folks trying to save the universe (based on marketing ploys like "effective MPG" and not telling them what the battery packs are gonna cost them 5 years in).
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
I'm not picking on the guys that want the hybrid, I'm picking on the guys that make them and market them to the folks trying to save the universe (based on marketing ploys like "effective MPG" and not telling them what the battery packs are gonna cost them 5 years in).

First time I've read anything like that in this thread. Now your sounding like a consumer protectionist, somewhat like Ralph Nader. Didn't know you had that in you.

Bill
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
First time I've read anything like that in this thread. Now your sounding like a consumer protectionist, somewhat like Ralph Nader. Didn't know you had that in you.

Bill

Neah, I just dont like folks that sell snake oil.

You ought to see me when the solar folks come to the door trying to sell me on all the money I am going to make "leasing" their solar cells.

Good times.
 

Jay Laifman

Donation Time
Once again, why does it have to make sense? There is plenty of poop on cars and trucks that do not make sense. For about 95% of the market, the SUV concept is nonsense. Why not talk about that? Spending thousands of extra dollars on a vehicle that gets lousy mileage, has no luggage space, will tip over in a heartbeat and instills a false sense of safety, all to avoid a tow once every 20 years. That makes economic sense?

Why pick on the guys that want a hybrid?

Bill

Ha! This used to be my thoughts about SUVs. I used to scoff at SUVs. Of course, at some point I came to the realization that I drove around in high performance sports cars that have the same hypocrisy. Consider the crazy power and performance that today's sports cars and even sedans have. Who the heck needs that performance? And just how many people ever get those cars on a track? The SUVs don't go off road and the sports cars don't get on the track.

Of course, I solved that problem for me and started racing! We just did autox last week and will be on the track next month. But that still doesn't resolve the overall uselessness of the majority of features on today's cars and SUVs!
 

tony perrett

Gold Level Sponsor
In all of the claims for the low pollution of hybrid vehicles, the environmental cost in producing the electricity needed to charge them is seldom mentioned. Funny, that.
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
In all of the claims for the low pollution of hybrid vehicles, the environmental cost in producing the electricity needed to charge them is seldom mentioned. Funny, that.

Tony, in the U.S., the environmental cost of producing power of any sort is a subject that is pure politics. It really should not be a part of the hybrid vehicle discussion because it is a very tiny piece of a huge problem.

The coal industry say that cheap electricity trumps human health. The crazies don't want anything because everything has a downside. They are against anything you mention, but they certainly want oodles of cheap electricity.

Even though I don't want one, I think we should encourage hybrids and other alternate approaches. They push the technology and that's how we advance. As an example, Consumers Reports says that while recent Hondas have a 30% battery failure rate, 12 year old Prius's are having a battery failure rate of 4-5%. Who would of thought that was even possible?

Bill
 

TulsaAlpine

Donation Time
Photovoltaic solar power

New home has solar panel, we were the 1st new home in the Peace River Coop to have photovoltaic panels installed the 40th generating station in the Coop. Once we learned how it really works, like chickens you use your power while it's generating and turn Everything off after dark. We have for the last 4 months paid ONLY the line usage fee of $30.00 the Minimum payment. The electric here is the highest in the US at .12 cents a kilowatt, and it's hot, humid the AC is on. It does work, daughter in Germany informed me of this fact, Europe is way ahead of us, see link. We are controlled by oil and gas here in America.

http://www.sciencealert.com.au/news/20142306-25725.html

Donna
;)
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
New home has solar panel, we were the 1st new home in the Peace River Coop to have photovoltaic panels installed the 40th generating station in the Coop. Once we learned how it really works, like chickens you use your power while it's generating and turn Everything off after dark. We have for the last 4 months paid ONLY the line usage fee of $30.00 the Minimum payment. The electric here is the highest in the US at .12 cents a kilowatt, and it's hot, humid the AC is on. It does work, daughter in Germany informed me of this fact, Europe is way ahead of us, see link. We are controlled by oil and gas here in America.

http://www.sciencealert.com.au/news/20142306-25725.html

Donna
;)


Donna, the federal government obliges the power generating utilities to buy your surplus power from you. There is talk of ending that subsidy.
At that point the buying of surplus power will become a commodity based on
the value it adds to the generating system as opposed to a high percentage of the generators retail cost for the power.

Remember that to sell the power at $.12/kWh, the power companies spent huge $$$ to install the infrastructure across many many years.
When the subsidy goes away, the generators will effectively charge you for the infrastructure you presently using for free to sell them power non competitively.

2016 will likley end the federal subsidy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_incentives_for_photovoltaics#United_States


The last thing to consider is how long the equipment is going to last.
Most current generation PV cells have a 20 to 25 year life-to-50%-capacity.
That is if the hail doesn't get it first.

I live about a mile from NREL.
They are betting on wind generators.
 

John W

Bronze Level Sponsor
Hum...Germany gets 50% of it's energy from solar power. The U.S. gets 0.2 percent of it's energy from solar power.
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
I leave it to the forum management whether this belongs in the Rants area.

Solar panels and windmills are not practical means of supplying large amounts of electric power, and probably never will be. First, they can't even exist without massive government (taxpayer) subsidies to build and erect them, then to further subsidize them because they can't make a profit. Second, they are intermittent power sources. When the sun don't shine, they produce little power. And zero at night. It is impossible to have large-scale solar panels and wind turbines without fossil fuels, especially natural gas.

Electricity cannot be stored for later use. Hydrocarbon-fired backup generators must run constantly, to fill the gap and avoid brownouts, blackouts and grid destabilization due to constant surges and falloffs in electricity to the grid. And constantly speeding up and slowing down to stabilize the grid as solar and wind generators fluctuate is wasteful of fuel and shortens the life of fossil-fuel generator, which are designed to run at a constant speed.

To supply just 20% of the current (no pun intended) supply would take solar farms the size of W. Virginia (all made overseas), never mind the future. So put them in deserts, where there are long hours of sun and vast open spaces, places like New Mexico, Arizona and Utah? (Where there are no rivers; so you wash them how? And then there's the cost of hiring tens of thousands of panel washers.) Finally, putting up thousands of square miles of panels would generate electricity where it's not needed, requiring multi-billion dollars expended on new transmission lines.

Then there's the windmills of the mindless. To confront the growing onslaught of wind industry pressure and propaganda, understand the fundamental facts about wind energy. Here are some of the top reasons for opposing further tax handouts:

Energy 101. It is impossible to have wind turbines without fossil fuels, especially natural gas. Turbines average only 30% of their “rated capacity†– and much less on the hottest and coldest days, when electricity is needed most. They produce excessive electricity when it is least needed and cannot be stored for later use. As with solar farms, fossil fuel-fired backup generators must run constantly, to fill the gap and avoid brownouts, blackouts and grid destabilization. Wind turbines frequently draw electricity from the grid, to keep blades turning when the wind is not blowing, reduce strain on turbine gears, and prevent icing during periods of winter calm.

In Britain, wind turbines have to be switched off an average of 38 days each year, ironically because wind speeds are too high, the National Grid reports. Wind farm operators are given “constraint†payments (expected to top $700 million by 2020) to make up for lost revenue when the turbines are idle.

Energy 201. Despite tens of billions in subsidies, wind turbines still generate less than 4% of US electricity. Thankfully, conventional sources keep our country running – and America still has centuries of hydrocarbon resources. It’s time our government allowed us to develop and use those resources.

Economics 101. Wind turbines also need perpetual subsidies – mostly money borrowed from China and future generations. Wind has never been able to compete economically with traditional energy, and there is no evidence that it will in the foreseeable future, especially with ever-cheaper and abundant natural gas. It makes far more sense to rely on the plentiful, reliable, affordable electricity sources that have powered our economy for decades, and build more nuclear and gas-fired generators.

In Britain alone, more than $800 million went to wind power, under the government’s Renewables Obligation program. The average turbine in the UK generates about $240,000 of power per year, but gets subsidies worth over $400,000. By 2020, subsidies are forecast to exceed $10 billion a year.

Economics 201. As Spain, Germany, Britain and other countries have learned, wind energy mandates and subsidies drive up the price of electricity – for families, factories, hospitals, schools etc. Electricity rates are expected to rise by up to 19 percent by 2015. They squeeze budgets and cost jobs - two to four traditional jobs are lost for every wind or other “green†one created. That means the supposed 37,000 jobs (perpetuated by $5 billion to $10 billion in combined annual subsidies, or $135,000 to $270,000 per wind job) are likely costing the United States 74,000 to 158,000 traditional jobs, while diverting billions from far more productive uses.

Environment 101. Industrial wind turbine projects require enormous quantities of rare earth metals, concrete, steel, copper, fiberglass
and other raw materials, for highly inefficient turbines, multiple backup generators and thousands of miles of high-voltage transmission lines. Extracting and processing these materials, turning them into finished components, and shipping and installing the turbines and power lines involve enormous amounts of fossil fuel and extensive environmental damage. Offshore wind turbine projects are even more expensive, resource intensive and indefensible. Calling wind energy “clean†or “eco-friendly†is an extraordinary distortion of the facts.

Environment 201. Wind turbines, transmission lines and backup generators also require vast amounts of crop, scenic and wildlife habitat land. Where a typical 600-megawatt coal or gas-fired power plant requires 250-750 acres, to generate power 90-95% of the year, a 600-MW wind installation needs 40,000 to 50,000 acres (or more), to deliver 30% performance. And while gas, coal and nuclear plants can be built close to cities, wind installations must go where the wind blows, typically hundreds of miles away – adding thousands of additional acres to every project for transmission lines.

Environment 301. Sometimes referred to as “Cuisinarts of the air,†US wind turbines also slaughter over half a million eagles, hawks, falcons, vultures, California condors, ducks, geese, bats and other rare, threatened, endangered and otherwise protected flying creatures every year. (This may be a very conservative number, as coyotes and turbine operator cleanup crews remove much of the evidence.) In one wind farm alone, Altamont Pass, CA., over ten thousand birds are slaughtered annually, most being federally protected raptors supposedly protected by the Migratory Bird Treaty Act.

And yet, while oil companies are prosecuted for the deaths of even a dozen common birds, turbine operators have been granted a blanket exemption from endangered and migratory species laws and penalties. Now the US Fish and Wildlife Service is proposing a formal rule to allow repeated “takings†(killings) of bald and golden eagles by wind turbines – in effect granting operators a 007 license to kill. And where is the concern about the hundreds of thousands - possibly millions - of bats killed in the USA by power-generating windmills? According to the Pennsylvania Game Commission, over 10,000 are killed this way in this state alone. Bats? Ugh, ugly things; who cares? You should care. They are by far the principal agents in keeping mosquito numbers down, each one consuming thousands per night. If they are wiped out we can expect a staggering increase in mosquito-borne diseases like encephalitis, West Nile Virus (a cause of meningitis) and, for our pets, heartworm disease.

And if those who want a massive increase in these windmills have their way, in answer to a mythical manmade global warming, the present slaughter will be nothing in comparison with what we might expect in 10 or 15 years. Notice the dead silence from PETA, WWF and the Audubon Society, all left-wing organizations.

Environment 401. Scientific support for CO2-driven catastrophic manmade global warming continues to diminish. Even if carbon dioxide does contribute to climate change, there is no evidence that even thousands of US wind turbines will affect future global temperatures by more than a few hundredths of a degree. Not only do CO2 emissions from backup generators (and wind turbine manufacturing) offset any reductions by the turbines, but rapidly increasing emissions from Brazil, China, India, Indonesia and other rapidly developing countries dwarf any possible US wind-related CO2 reductions (China and India alone are opening a new coal-fired generating station each week, and planning, 1,000 new ones by 2035.)

Human Health and Welfare 101. Skyrocketing electricity prices due to “renewable portfolio standards†raise heating and air conditioning costs; drive families into fuel poverty; increase food, medical, school and other costs; and force companies to lay off workers, further impairing their families’ health and welfare. The strobe-light effect, annoying audible noise, and inaudible low-frequency sound from whirling blades result in nervous fatigue, headaches, dizziness, irritability, sleep problems, and vibro-acoustic effects on people’s hearts and lungs. Land owners receive royalties for having turbines on their property, but neighbors receive no income and face adverse health effects, decreased property values and difficulty selling their homes. Once close-knit communities are torn apart.

Real World Civics 101. Politicians take billions from taxpayers, ratepayers and profitable businesses, to provide subsidies to Big Wind companies, who buy Made Somewhere Else turbines – and then contribute millions to the politicians’ reelection campaigns, to keep the incestuous cycle going. It is truly government gone wild – GSA on steroids. It is unsustainable. It is a classic sWINDle.
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
Yes, I've done a bit of research. Two problems emerge: 1) the reverse economics (costing more to produce than the product is worth) and 2) difficulty of storage. Solid and liquid fuels like coal and oil are extremely compact and concentrated forms of energy. Natural gas is generally piped to where it's needed, but is relatively easy to compress and store or transport.

Hydrogen sounds like the perfect fuel, producing only water vapor (and microscopic amounts of nitrogen oxides) when burned - but as a fuel poses big problems. First, all the hydrogen on earth, except that in hydrocarbons, has already been oxidized, so none is waiting, like natural gas, to be tapped. Sure, you can make it by splitting water by hydrolysis, but whatever energy you use to do this costs many times more than the fuel value of the hydrogen obtained (which is why only 4% of all hydrogen currently produced is made this way.)The most common production method today is steam reformation of natural gas:

7CH4 + 402 + 6H20 [forward arrow] 7C02 + 20H2. In other words, we have taken 7 moles of methane and 4 moles of oxygen to produce 20 moles of hydrogen. We've used 1,435 kcal of methane energy to produce 1,320 kcal of hydrogen, far less than if we'd simply burned the methane (and producing the same amount of CO2).

Another huge problem. To transport it, it would have to be compacted by reducing it to a liquid, which requires cooling it to -253C, which is just 20 degrees above absolute zero, and would take 40% of the energy in the hydrogen just to cool it. Then, as a cryogenic liquid, it would have to be transported in huge very effectively insulated tanks, with vents, and even then a lot will be lost by boiling away. (An alternative, compressing it, would require pumps capable of compressing it to 5,000 psi, and tanks capable of storing it at this pressure.)

Hydrogen as a fuel is a myth. A great book on the subject of all alternative fuels to petroleum is Energy Victory, by Robert Zubrin.
 
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