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Back on the road.... help.

62Sii

Silver Level Sponsor
Hello to all .
I have a 1961 S2 Alpine that has been laid up for the past 12 yrs in my garage due to a mechanical problem .
I now would like to put it back on the road. It has been sitting with half a tank of unleaded petrol and the motor was only run for the first three years. It has been turned by crank a few times since. The glass fuel bowl had a jelly like mass in it at one time . I cleaned this out and the pump now pumps petrol with the hand primer. I would like to any advice Re potential problems to look for. Especially brakes fuel lines / tank ETC.
Chris.
 

sunalp

Diamond Level Sponsor
Hi Chris,
Sitting for that long I would pull the fuel tank and send it out to be cleaned and sealed. Once that is done ( or while it's being
done) replace the fuel line after visually checking it for corrosion. If you have, and you probably do, steel fuel and brake
lines they should be replaced due to condensation from sitting. These tend to corrode from the inside out and can be faulty
even when they look good. At the very least, you should clean them by blowing compressed air through them to get all the old
fuel and brake fluid out. I would replace the front brake hoses and rear wheel cylinders as both have deteriorated and most
likely seized. Then either replace or rebuild the calipers and resurface the rotors ,add new pads. Brakes should not be overlooked
and anything that might fail should be replaced. Seems like a lot of work, but it's really not all that bad.

A car like yours that has been sitting for so long is a lot of work to make roadworthy again, but it is a great feeling to have it back
once all the work has been done.

Keep us posted on your developments!
Cheers!
Steve
 

Gordon Holsinger

Diamond Level Sponsor
Hello to all .
I have a 1961 S2 Alpine that has been laid up for the past 12 yrs in my garage due to a mechanical problem .
I now would like to put it back on the road. It has been sitting with half a tank of unleaded petrol and the motor was only run for the first three years. It has been turned by crank a few times since. The glass fuel bowl had a jelly like mass in it at one time . I cleaned this out and the pump now pumps petrol with the hand primer. I would like to any advice Re potential problems to look for. Especially brakes fuel lines / tank ETC.
Chris.
Cris sunalp has given you good advice particularly BRAKES! Wheel cylinders are cheap Victoria British has a sale on good through the end of the month. Replace all of the brake flex hoses also cheap. The caliper pistons tend to pit so they should be inspected and replaced as required all of the seals in the calipher are probably shot. Do not overlook the master cyl. New master cylinders are available. Wheel cylinders and master cyl are aluminum and pit from moisture you could have them sleeved but it is expensive. I would highly suggest that you replace the steel brake lines they rust from the inside out the fuel system the same thing
 

62Sii

Silver Level Sponsor
Hi Chris,
Sitting for that long I would pull the fuel tank and send it out to be cleaned and sealed. Once that is done ( or while it's being
done) replace the fuel line after visually checking it for corrosion. If you have, and you probably do, steel fuel and brake
lines they should be replaced due to condensation from sitting. These tend to corrode from the inside out and can be faulty
even when they look good. At the very least, you should clean them by blowing compressed air through them to get all the old
fuel and brake fluid out. I would replace the front brake hoses and rear wheel cylinders as both have deteriorated and most
likely seized. Then either replace or rebuild the calipers and resurface the rotors ,add new pads. Brakes should not be overlooked
and anything that might fail should be replaced. Seems like a lot of work, but it's really not all that bad.

A car like yours that has been sitting for so long is a lot of work to make roadworthy again, but it is a great feeling to have it back
once all the work has been done.

Keep us posted on your developments!
Cheers!
Steve
Thanks..... What I am worried about is the fuel system with the unleaded petrol. as I have heard stories about the alloy head being corroded ? All the brake and fuel lines were replaced in about 1994 when the car was restored and look almost like new from the outside , but as you say ...what is on the inside, but for safety sake I feel it would be a good idea to replace these . Can I use the 3/16 copper/ metal pipe with brass fittings as available on E-Bay for both ?.
I will take your advice and give the calipers etc a good going over. I'm on rather a tight budget but can do most of the work myself , I'm just not up to date with the best materials / products to use for the job ...Eg, the fuel tank , fuel lines ETC.
One other question ...Where can I get new black with red piping seat covers for the Series 2 ?
 

puff4

Platinum Level Sponsor
"What I am worried about is the fuel system with the unleaded petrol.

Unleaded petrol runs fine in our engines. If your driving habits are shorter runs and light driving, no worries. If you tend to run at high speeds for long periods - where the engine gets quite hot - you may want to eventually consider having new valves and harder seats installed, as they do suffer somewhat from valve seat recession. Mine receded enough to significantly decrease the valve clearances on a regular basis, which, BTW, is the way to diagnose it.

"...as I have heard stories about the alloy head being corroded ?"

There are two types of 'corrosion' seen on Alpine alloy heads. The first is standard coolant-jacket corrosion, and yes, it can be quite bad in neglected cars. However, as long as a good quality antifreeze has been installed this is somewhat minimized. In any case, if there is damage to the ports in the head which lead to the block, these may be welded up and the head (as minimally as possible!) resurfaced. Mine has been done and it's been running beautifully.

Another way the heads appear to 'corrode', is by virtue of the engine's design. The rear-most portion of the engine has a hot spot over #4 since it has limited coolant flow in that area, and this is particularly worse in the later engines where there is no coolant return pipe from the head to the intake manifold. The combustion chamber can get quite hot and this causes carbon deposits on the cylinder head and piston top to get excessively hot, begin glowing, and consequently burn small pits in the alloy (which looks a lot like corrosion). There's no real cure for this except ensuring your car's temperature is properly regulated and that, again, you use a quality coolant.

"All the brake and fuel lines were replaced in about 1994 when the car was restored..."

I'd leave them if they're in that condition. Flush the brake lines with alcohol (the proper solvent for clearing brake fluid) and blow them out with an air line to remove any remaining solvent or debris, then check the inside of the ends for any visible corrosion - very likely there will be none, and at that point you should be good to go. As for the fuel line, flush it with carburettor cleaning solvent and you should be good to go.

As far as the tanks, Steve is correct that they are a weak point in Alpines. The original interior coating tends to flake off and clog everything up - even the main fuel line - and it makes for some puzzling symptoms when it does. If you're planning to keep the car a long time, Steve's advice is spot-on. If all you want to do is get it running, then I'd take them out, rinse them with some carburettor cleaning solvent (or lacquer thinner) and carefully examine the rinse agent to see if it contains any black bits... if it doesn't, you're likely fine for a while. If you do choose to do the whole 'clean and seal' routine - which is a very good idea if you plan to keep the car long-term - then don't forget to also do the cross-over pipe. The best sealant, IMHO, is the stuff from Bill Hirsch - I used it in my Alpine 28 years ago and it's still fine.

"Where can I get new black with red piping seat covers for the Series 2 ?"

As for the interior trim, most of the major Sunbeam spares suppliers can get you what you need. The best were made by ProPrep Interiors (Martha Wheat) but I don't know if they are still doing them - someone here can tell us, I'm sure.
 
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Gordon Holsinger

Diamond Level Sponsor
"What I am worried about is the fuel system with the unleaded petrol.

Unleaded petrol runs fine in our engines. If your driving habits are shorter runs and light driving, no worries. If you tend to run at high speeds for long periods - where the engine gets quite hot - you may want to eventually consider having new valves and harder seats installed, as they do suffer somewhat from valve seat recession. Mine receded enough to significantly decrease the valve clearances on a regular basis, which, BTW, is the way to diagnose it.

"...as I have heard stories about the alloy head being corroded ?"

There are two types of 'corrosion' seen on Alpine alloy heads. The first is standard coolant-jacket corrosion, and yes, it can be quite bad in neglected cars. However, as long as a good quality antifreeze has been installed this is somewhat minimized. In any case, if there is damage to the ports in the head which lead to the block, these may be welded up and the head (as minimally as possible!) resurfaced. Mine has been done and it's been running beautifully.

Another way the heads appear to 'corrode', is by virtue of the engine's design. The rear-most portion of the engine has a hot spot over #4 since it has limited coolant flow in that area, and this is particularly worse in the later engines where there is no coolant return pipe from the head to the intake manifold. The combustion chamber can get quite hot and this causes carbon deposits on the cylinder head and piston top to get excessively hot, begin glowing, and consequently burn small pits in the alloy. There's no real cure for this except ensuring your car's temperature is properly regulated and that, again, you use a quality coolant.

"All the brake and fuel lines were replaced in about 1994 when the car was restored..."

I'd leave them if they're in that condition. Flush the brake lines with alcohol and blow them out an air line to remove any brake fluid or debris, then check the inside of the ends for any visible corrosion - very likely there will be none, and at that point you should be good to go. As for the fuel line, flush it with carburettor cleaning solvent and you should be good to go.

As far as the tanks, Steve is correct that they are a weak point in Alpines. The original interior coating tends to flake off and clog everything up - even the main fuel line - and it makes for some puzzling symptoms when it does. If you're planning to keep the car a long time, Steve's advice is spot-on. If all you want to do is get it running, then I'd take them out, rinse them with some carburettor cleaning solvent (or lacquer thinner) and carefully examine the rinse agent to see if it contains any black bits... if it doesn't, you're likely fine for a while. If you do choose to do the whole 'clean and seal' routine - which is a very good idea if you plan to keep the car long-term - then don't forget to also do the cross-over pipe. The best sealant, IMHO, is the stuff from Bill Hirsh - I used it in my Alpine 28 years ago and it's still fine.

"Where can I get new black with red piping seat covers for the Series 2 ?"

As for the interior trim, most of the major Sunbeam spares suppliers can get you what you need. The best were made by ProPrep Interiors (Martha Wheat) but I don't know if they are still doing them - someone here can tell us, I'm sure.
Call Rick at Sunbeam specialties
 

RootesRooter

Donation Time
If all the lines (including flexible hoses) were replaced during a 1994 restoration and I was on a tight budget, I would drain the old gas and replace it with fresh. Ditto with the brake fluid, giving it a good flush. I'd replace the wheel cylinders (they're inexpensive), clean up the rear brake mechanisms of grime and rust and make sure they move freely, and that the return springs haven't sagged. Then start it up and see what works and what doesn't. If the calipers still move and stop the car, and the masters and rear seals don't leak, drive it. Keep an eye on the reservoirs, like we all do. If the fuel lines or carbs are gummed up, you'll know right away. Remove the fuel bowl after a few miles and check the cavity in the bottom of the pump for large flecks of black paint, indicating the need for a gas tank overhaul.
 

puff4

Platinum Level Sponsor
The reason for flushing the brake lines is not as much to clean them as it is to remove any traces of the old stuff. You never know what DOT type the DPO had put in there, and mixing different types of brake fluid is problematic, so if you've got an unknown system I usually recommend a flush to make sure only one type of fluid is in the system.
 

Warren

Bronze Level Sponsor
FYI just got Italian rear brake cylinders and a cast iron master from S.S. with a funky pushrod that is not plug and play * for a later car not S2
My exp. is the lead from the old fuel is still in there.. but if it bothers you use a lead substitute . I won't use the substitute I have too bad its going to the H waste some day....

PS old gas goes away on a hot day with a towel as a wick in a bucket.
 

65beam

Donation Time
An FYI to anybody that may need wheel cylinders, I just placed an order with VB for wheel cylinders, etc. for my stock. Cylinders for series 3 thru 5 and Tigers are $12.76 each and self adjustors for series 5 are also $12.76. Series 1 & 2 are $23.16. Caliper kits are $15.96 and clutch slaves for series 3 thru 5 are $11.96. I wonder what the brand of these items will be. I'll know by the weekend. These prices are in effect thru this week.
 

RootesRooter

Donation Time
The reason for flushing the brake lines is not as much to clean them as it is to remove any traces of the old stuff. You never know what DOT type the DPO had put in there, and mixing different types of brake fluid is problematic, so if you've got an unknown system I usually recommend a flush to make sure only one type of fluid is in the system.

It's not just to get rid of the old brake fluid. Brake fluid attracts water vapor, which can rust the brake lines from the inside.
 

puff4

Platinum Level Sponsor
I’m rather surprised that VB is selling any British parts at all. I visited their facility this summer on the way to Colorado and they were displaying nearly 100% Ford truck parts. They said they do very little LBC business anymore and they don’t see continuing that much longer.
 

65beam

Donation Time
Regardless of that I do have them on order and have confirmation of shipping. The price is right and I have stock that allows me to repair just about anything that could go wrong on our cars. Their reputation for LBC parts since Long passed has hurt them but they have a following for truck /van parts. I've recently been buying various rubber and interior parts for my 35 year old Ford van from them.
 

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62Sii

Silver Level Sponsor
Thanks to all for the excellent advice.
I drove the car for 2.5 yrs before it spat the dummy . I used 95 octane petrol with Flashlube additive .
I will take the motor out and I'm going to fit a later model spin on oil filter and an after market oil cooler ( tube / finned type ) which I have already . What type of engine oil is recommended as the car will be driven regularly ? Also I have a rebuilt Series 3 gearbox with overdrive to fit . What oil is recommended for this ? What brake fluid is recommended ?
Chris
 

steven

Donation Time
I run silicon fluid in the brakes and clutch. Does not mix with water does not corrode paint and after many years the Master and slave cylinders look as new
 

Gordon Holsinger

Diamond Level Sponsor
Regardless of that I do have them on order and have confirmation of shipping. The price is right and I have stock that allows me to repair just about anything that could go wrong on our cars. Their reputation for LBC parts since Long passed has hurt them but they have a following for truck /van parts. I've recently been buying various rubber and interior parts for my 35 year old Ford van from them.
Bob you have the most organized garage I have seen in years. I have just finished doing the rear brakes in the SV I have been building up my inventory of parts wheel cyl calipher pistons seals and so forth. I just got a load of wheel cyl parts from VB the wheel cyl are made by a company in Italy called LPR they look to be of good quality. Patty and I are in the process of moving from Arlington to Purcellville VA we are building an addition and I when we are finished will have a 4 car garage with a lift at the age of 70 I just can’t see crawling around on the floor.
 

Barry

Diamond Level Sponsor
I run silicon fluid in the brakes and clutch. Does not mix with water does not corrode paint and after many years the Master and slave cylinders look as new


DOT 5.0 (silicone) brake fluid is OK for trailer queens, but not so much for cars that are regularly driven. Silicone based brake fluids are compressible which results in a "spongy" pedal and are non-miscible with water which can result in "pockets" of water in the hydraulic system (not a good thing). Using silicone based brake fluid in a system with even trace amounts of glycol based brake fluid or water can result in catastrophic system failure.

Just the opinion of someone who spent 35 years in / around / supplying the OEM automotive brake industry, YMMV.
 
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Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
I switched to silicone 30 years ago and 28,000 miles driven since then and have had no problems. Prior to that I was constantly dealing with gunked up and sticking brake pistons and seals.

Tom
 

65beam

Donation Time
Thanks to all for the excellent advice.
I drove the car for 2.5 yrs before it spat the dummy . I used 95 octane petrol with Flashlube additive .
What type of engine oil is recommended as the car will be driven regularly ? Also I have a rebuilt Series 3 gearbox with overdrive to fit . What oil is recommended for this ? What brake fluid is recommended ?
Chris
I use a 20/50 engine oil. Brand doesn't matter if the oil carries the current specs. SAE 30 in the trans/ over drive and Castrol LMA brake fluid. LMA means Low Moisture Additive
 
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