Any Ideas?

[DanR]

A couple PIC's

I have uploaded two PIC's....the first is the "tool" I made to determine TDC for my 2.8 V6 FORD engine in my Commodore Blue V6.

The second is a PIC of the timing mark on the Harmonic balancer in alignment with the factory "Marker"..... I believe I have the number one piston stopped at top dead center. I used the "probe tool I made for this purpose.

I will wait until my friend comes to help make sure I did it right.

As Bill said if I understand correctly when you find tdc one way reverse and go to tdc the other way ?

I think I understand what Jim was getting at with the gears, just don't want to bend a valve by off setting timing by aligning the gear dots different from the manual. Anyway I will keep the engine intact until another is ready for installation AND I FIND FOR SURE WHAT I have....

 

[DanR]

Another picture of the 2.8 V6 Timing Marker@ TDC

Here is a bit better picture of the timing mark right on the TDC on the harmonic balancer. This is with my timing probe indicating the number 1 piston at top position.

In the PIC Jim POSTED of the Cam Gear and the Crank Gear for clarity sake the crank gear turns clockwise and the cam gear turns counter clockwise.

So, how would you "offset" the timing if in time according to the "Dots"? If that is one way of correcting the timing....

 

[Bill Blue]

As Bill said if I understand correctly when you find tdc one way reverse and go to tdc the other way ?

Not quite. As you know, TDC is VERY difficult to determine because piston speed drops off rapidly and actually stops as the piston rocks slightly in the bore. To combat this, the piston stop method purposely stops piston movement well in advance of TDC. So, lets say you stop piston movement 14.5 degrees before TDC, reverse rotation and once again stop movement at 14.5 degrees before TDC. The difference between the two stopping points is actual TDC.

You would change the timing by the use offset keys. TDC would remain the same and the picture would remain the same, but the camshaft would be rotated.

Bill

 

[260Alpine]

Dan, Here's a long shot. Do you have a voltmeter? Pretty rare but possible, if you have a 1 wire alternator, they don't charge until around 1200 RPM. If your battery is weak maybe insufficient voltage for the ignition system until after 1200 RPM when the alternator starts charging. If bad grounds, corrosion or loose connections even worse. I know you changed carbs and distributors but I don't know if you tried a different coil or plug wires. Have you tried with manifold vacuum, advancing the distributor until it misses a little, back off a little and try to slow idle speed with the screw on the carb?

 

[DanR]

Jim, The wires are new from the initial installation. The coils have been new out of the boxes.

I do have a voltmeter and a one wire Alternator, not sure at what RPM it starts charging, will check that!

My battery is usually fully charged,even put a trickle charge at various times.

Advanced the distributor but not until it missed, will try that & then slow idle speed screw!

 

[MikeH]

I copied this from the Pruett book.

 

[DanR]

Mike, I recently purchased one of these very valuable books from a fellow SAOCA (V6) Member, Jim Diamond AKA Cactusmasher.

While the picture is not real clear (for the top Dot) it is in fact in alignment with the bottom. I have verified this by having the Timing cover off sometime back when I first put coolant in the radiator.

I spotted a leak and knew right-a-way where the water was coming from, a common failure to builders that are not familiar with the Cologne engine and left out the two rubber washers that go between the timing cover and the engine block. Not my error! My Machine shop Guys know better now

 

[Tom H]

Mike, Dan, This confirms the correct dot alignment between Cam and Crank. I am 99.9% sure that the dwg that 260Alpine posted shows exactly the same dot alignment. BUT that dwg shows the same alignment but with the crank (and cam) rotated together about 1 tooth. The link that 260Alpine posted shows this dwg to be "Figure 4" , but without the text we don't know what the dwg is trying to show. Clearly it is not showing a different cam timing but maybe showing some slightly off-TDC position or some such.

Tom

 

[DanR]

I have not read all of this, so sorry if someone all ready suggested this. Have you tried hooking up a vacuum gauge to watch while driving?

With your suggestion I dug thru some of my stuff and found this vacuum gauge (see PIC below) that I will connect soon. Thanks for the idea,

DanR

 

[MikeH]

Dan,
With me not knowing much about cam specs, I did some searching and found some articles. they helped me understand some of the numbers a bit more.
But it makes me ask, what would the advertised values be on the Jose grind?

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/choosing-the-right-camshaft/
http://www.lunatipower.com/Tech/Cams/CamSpecTerms.aspx

 

[MikeH]

... 290 advertised duration will be approximately 240 at .050 lift. The Buick 350 stroker in Chris's MGB had 4 degrees advance ground in and he advanced it another 4 degrees thinking it would help idle and low end. It did, too much. That cam was 290/300 advertised and around .500 lift.

So would the 247.7/242.4 at .050 listed on the Jose grind be a good choice on the 2.8 with 2.9 valves and 2.9 crank?

 

[260Alpine]

Mike, It is ground with 5 degrees advance which will help low end and move power curve down. That cam is advertised at 300/290 duration. 9 to 1 up to 10 to 1 compression would be advised with that much duration. Look up Dynamic Compression ratio formula. You want 7 to 1 to 8 to 1 to run on pump gas. I think 7.5 is ideal. I haven't figured it out with 8.5 like Dan has but my guess its on the low side. A hotter cam like that likes more advance at idle. On V8's with similiar cam specs I've seen as much as 18 degrees initial. You still want no more than 36 total at 3000 RPM not counting vacuum advance. Chris's example has 10.25 to 1 compression. Dan may be happier with a 270 advertised duration (220 @ .050 lift).

 

[DanR]

UP DATE ON My V6: During the past couple of months I removed the V6 from Blue Boy in order to remove the Delta Cam (Full Race +) and replace it with a milder version of a street cam. During that time I also replaced my original straight back headers (1st set) with some nice new shiny ones. Also I attempted to install an internal hyd slave but having difficulty in measurements and a very short time frame for readiness, I reverted back to the external slave system for now.

Needless to say, I am disappointed because I wanted very much to be ready before now for the drive to the Columbia, SC British Car Show 24, 24 March. I will immediately begin a revisit to the RAM when I get back home.

Just could not figure what I was doing wrong.

I do have the V6 running with the Comp Cam & Plenty of vacuum & idles nicely enough until I can get a good tune up. Valves are very noisy and the timing is off too!! But, it will idle at 1000 RPM and slightly below and not shut off How about that?

Just had to do a test drive late this afternoon, with lots of work remaining, just could not resist any longer") Punched it a few times and am very happy with the response too!

Will spend more time tomorrow adjusting the valves and putting the small stuff back (THAT IS IF i DON'T AWAKEN DURING THE NIGHT AND GET BACK OUT TO THE GARAGE).... Man it feels great to be able to drive and not have to work yourself to death trying to keep the engine running, pumping the gas , swapping from the clutch pedal to the brake, and back again all the while working the gas pedal, UGH!

Thanks Jim N and all you Guys that gave me encouragement during this terrible experience!

It idles! It IDLES!! IT will actually idle on it's own.... Wow!

 

[260Alpine]

Congrats! Dan! Remember the Comp Cams valve lash is different. I think it is .o10 IN, .012 EX hot. I'd go .012 IN, .014 EX cold. What vacuum do you show @ 1000RPM? My program shows 14-15. That is with 12 degrees initial timing. 32 degrees total with vacuum plugged. Carb power valve around 7.

 

[DanR]

Jim, I initially set the valve lash at the 14 Int 16 Exh. I will go through the valves again now that it is running (noisy). In this PIC the engine is pulling vacuum at the middle of the "Green" where I made the mark. Close to the15. RPM @ 1100

 

[DanR]

After fitting' a few things and making sure Oil and water was OK! I decided to go for a short run.

The engine ran well with quick response, temp cool, oil pressure OK, vacuum very good, idle was great at all stops and I did not have to pump the gas during stops. Now that is an improvement

I have yet to re-adjust the valves even though they are a bit noisy. That will be next on the agenda!

 

[DanR]

A Revisit to my former post ….Any Ideas?

I am enjoying with Great Pleasure driving my Blue Boy V6 with the Comp 36 241 4.

Thanks Jim N with your help in making the selection on the cam.

 

[bulldurham]

I have used the same Duraspark box for 7 years now and have not had an issue w/ it; however, it is
inside the car, attached to the bottom of the tray and above the false floor panel. Guess I have been lucky.

 

[DanR]

I like that location too!

 

[Charles Johns]

Dan, my schooling was a night course in TV repair at Elkins Institute in Dallas. Intermittent problems are the hardest to locate...until we came up with cans of FREEZE. I assume they are still available at electronics stores. It was fun to watch an engineer's expression change when we FROZE a component to get it to turn on after a heat-failure. This was in the late 1960's and things have improved a lot, but things can still fail with an off-and-on situation due to heat. Ford put the brain on the inner fender at first but got smart and moved it to under the dash. Failures dropped dramatically.