Another...cooling question

[dmich2]

OK all you "Cooler-heads". Here's something I have not seen addressed. And if my assumptions are incorrect I'm sure I'll get good advice.

A mechanic was looking over my SIV with the 2.8 conversion. We were discusisng the cooling, or sometime lack of, and he suggested this scenario. I am running the orginal SIV radiator whereby the inlet/outlets were replumbed to accomadate the 2.8's. The stock radiator had the necks on the upper and lower driver's side (LHD), and the 2.8 has the lower on the driver's side and the upper on passenger. He thought, and I did some research and it seems correct, the stock radiator had a vertical flow to the cooling of the water, and the Mustang had a horizontal flow. He thought that might be an issue. Next I see the original Mustang cooling system was 12.5 'quarts' and the stock SIV was 15 "pints". That right there seems to point to an issue as far as cooling. My radiator has never been recored, but the coolant is clean, and I have no leaks.

Anyway, all this may be a mute point, but it just seemed interesting.

Dennis

 

[Jim E]

Dennis,
You need a three row core if you do not have one. Do not think it matters a lot about which wat the radiator flows.

With the three row core my S3 runs just at 200 at the hottest. You could try a set of temparay horn hole block offs and see if it helps. Maybe cut them out of some card board and tape them in place, if it does help you could make them from metal. The three row core is the key thought and if you have a three row I would have the tanks pulled and the core rodded. I paid $40 to have mine done or maybe it was $60 with teh neck move.

Side note carb guy says $50 for the kit, $50 for the rework and $50 if he takes it off. We would schedule this for after 5 pm. You and I can remove it and save $50. Bonus is if you caome he will also end up tuning the thing for you. Oh and we may want to show up early and yank the carb to get it in the cleaning tank sooner.

 

[Bill Blue]

Dennis, according to the mechanic, how does the flow direction impact cooling? The early Alpines were cross flow, later ones vertical. Does not seem to make much difference.

Ditto the capacity of the cooling system. The limiting factors of the Alpine cooling system have been identified as air recirculation, amount of air flow and the exposed surface area of the radiator. When these items are addressed the Alpine seems to have no cooling problems. The easiest way to increase water capacity of the system would be a thicker radiator, but that route usually seems to give marginal results.

Bill

 

[dmich2]

Thanks Bill and Jim. I've emailed a alum radiator company with some questions also. I may look at reworking the old one.

Jim, on the side note. Carb is brand new. Just took it to a guy here in NC and he took it off, cleaned it and made some adjustments. It's doing better but still seems to be running rich to me. Oh well what do I know. I'm interested in having your guy tune it thou as I hear he's good. Let me look at the calendar and pick out some dates and I'll pm you to see if they'll work.

Dennis

 

[V6 JOSE]

Dennis,

You need a heavier core radiator. The stock radiator is a three row core, but it doesn't have enough tubes or fins. With the heavier core, and the Volvo fan you are using, you will find that the temp stays well within the design parameters for this engine. The 2.8 V6 was designed to run hotter, for smog purposes, so not to worry.

Jose

 

[dmich2]

Thanks Jose....COOL !!

Dennis

 

[Bill Blue]

Dennis, the research that was done on cooling Tigers found the heavy duty radiator cost the most and had the least impact on improved cooling. This is due to reduced airflow through through the radiator and the fact the air is nearly heat saturated by the first two rows. If it was my money being spent, which it isn't, I'd block the holes as Jim mentioned, put on the Volvo fan and remove the sheet metal blocking the lower part of the radiator. All that can be done for about 50 bucks.

If the car still was not cooling properly, I'd swap out radiators. $350. Even if the car does need the three row radiator, the other stuff needs to be done anyway.

Bill

 

[britbeam]

Ok heres my 2 cents. I didnt block the holes and I did have the radiator built with a 3 row heavy duty core( not aluminum). I did use the Volvo fan and I believe its the way to go. No need to reinvent anything else, this works.I do use water wetter only as a safe guard. I cant really see any diference from using it.Volvo fan,New 3 row core and I run cool in the summer. Rarely do I see 200 degress. I run 180 to 190. The radiator shop told me my radiator they used is the same they build around for street rods running 350 chevy engines. Works for me. V6 Alpine think street rod not little British 4 cyl. Its not your mothers Alpine.
Dwain V6 Krazy

 

[V6 JOSE]

Blocking horn holes can be done, along with the Volvo fan, but unless you replace the stock core, it WILL NOT COOL! The stock core can not handle all the heat the V6 puts out, because the tubes and fins it has don't have enough surface area to be able to dissipate the heat generated. I've been there and done that.

Jose

 

[Bill Blue]

Anyone interested in the test data, logged in nearly a thousand hours in a
Tiger, click here:

www.teae.org/cooling/cooling_article.html

Yes, it is on a Tiger, but the basic results apply to the Apline.

 

[Nickodell]

Vertical flow or horizontal flow is immaterial; the point is that the coolant enters at one end and leaves at the other, having yielded heat to the airflow which enters and leaves at a right angle in either case. Vertical flow radiators are a survivor of the earliest days of autos when there were no water pumps.

Cooling was by the so-called "thermo-syphon" which, like radiator, is a misnomer. ("Radiators" are actually conductors). The thermo-syphon was actually a convection-flow system, where the hottest coolant was pushed to the top pf the block and into the top tank of the rad by the cooler, denser coolant entering at the bottom, resulting in a continuous flow. (A syphon, in contrast, is a fluid flow in a pipe or tube which is able to climb to a higher level than that in a container, since the outlet of the tube is lower than the inlet in the container, resulting in more mass of fluid from the high point to the outlet than from the inlet to the high point, which causes a suction).

To work, a thermo-syphon system requires a large radiator and high coolant quantity as the heat rejection is low, particularly as up to the late 20s many cars had no fan either. As engines became more efficient and heat rejection more critical, and in addition radiators and coolant volume, and also underhood room, became smaller, water pumps and fans became de rigeur. Interestingly, the flathead Ford V8, of which I owned two - one in a 1953 Ford Pilot saloon (essentially an English-built 1939 American Ford), the other in my 1947 Allard K1, the engine cooling was described as "thermo-syphon, impeller assisted." Sort of half of each.

 

[alpine_64]

Blocking horn holes can be done, along with the Volvo fan, but unless you replace the stock core, it WILL NOT COOL! The stock core can not handle all the heat the V6 puts out, because the tubes and fins it has don't have enough surface area to be able to dissipate the heat generated. I've been there and done that.

Jose

Jose, has anyone with a V6 run a Tiger radiator? There are a few on ebay lately as tiger owners seem to be going to Ally.. so they are out there, cheapish.. and we know they fit alpines.

 

[V6 JOSE]

Jose, has anyone with a V6 run a Tiger radiator? There are a few on ebay lately as tiger owners seem to be going to Ally.. so they are out there, cheapish.. and we know they fit alpines.

I don't know of anyone that has used a Tiger radiator, but I guess it would work ok. The V6 doesn't create as much heat as the V8 does, so it should work. There is another reason that the Tiger has an overheating problem, and that is because the engine is so tight i n the engine compartment, that air can't get out of the compartment easily, so flow through the radiator is reduced, because it backs up. The V6 is tight, but it has more room for air to exit the engine compartment.

Jose

 

[4beams]

Mini 3 row on SIV V6

Several years ago I had a 3 row "Mini" built, (I'm still not sure what that means) with the stock top and bottom tanks. To date, I can't overheat if I try. Plastic fan w/toptank shroud. Remember ,a "sweltering" day in England is about 80F

 

[65beam]

V6cooling

jose,
what did bob sharkey use in his car? i see them driving this car everywhere and it seems to be trouble free.i have never heard him say anything about overheating.

 

[V6 JOSE]

jose,
what did bob sharkey use in his car? i see them driving this car everywhere and it seems to be trouble free.i have never heard him say anything about overheating.

Bob has a heavy duty three core radiator in his Alpine. His Alpine just runs, and runs, and runs. I don't remember if he has blocked the horn holes and done some of the other things that are recommended to make an Alpine cool; but Bob has taken care of the basic reason that most guys, that try to use the stock radiator and find their cars overheating, insufficient radiator capacity. I have never found a V6 Alpine, that has a heavy duty three core radiator, and a proper engine mounted fan, over heating in any kind of weather or traffic conditions.

The Tiger has a radiator that has sufficient capacity to cool it, but it has issues with getting enough air through the radiator, to get it to work properly. That is why the fixes that have been noted, can fix it's cooling problems.

Jose

 

[65beam]

overheating

jose,
we'll see bob & judy in a few weeks and i am going to ask him if he blocked the horn openings.i just wonder if they really have a top on this car.

 

[weaselkeeper]

I got my modified radiator back about a month ago. I asked to have it built as a three core, but the shop convinced me (with data from his book) to go with a different type of two core. I was sceptical, but he seemed to have data to support this. There are more tubes and each tube is about 40% deeper that the original for more surface area which nearly doubles the surface area over the original. When I asked about comparison with an aluminum, he showed me data that had the AL perfoming less than what he was offering. He then ordered the core from the manufacturer. I've done busines with this shop off and on for over 20 years, and have been very happy with their work. Other than a fit check, I've not installed it yet, so there will be more to the story in the future.

 

[V6 JOSE]

Pete,

I have heard of this new core configuration, so you may have something there. Technology marches on, and we have to keep up, or we'll be left behind. I would love to hear how that radiator works out, because if it works well, and it is thinner, we might be able to get away with using the longer Ranger water pump and get a bit more life out of the water pump.

65Beam,

Tell Bob and Judy Hi for me, when you see them. I get to drive his Alpine at Invasion V and it was just beautiful. Drove like almost any expensive sports car you can get today.

Jose

 

[weaselkeeper]

Just pulled the radiator paper work. This core is made from 2 rows of 5/8 tubes w/ 16 fins per inch. There are 50 tubes across the face. The core measures 1.6" thick and is set back approx, 7/16 inch in from the trailing edge of the top tank. I don't have the original to compare, so someone out there with an original core may be able to help with that.

The core manufacturer is located in the NW, but I'm not sure exactly where. It was a little spendy @ $466 which included labor and the water neck changes needed for the 2.8 mod, but again, I've always been happy with their work and that has value to me.

If anyone is interested and wants more info, try www.macsradiator.com There are about 14 locations in the Pacific NW. I've seen some other products they offer at a couple of different car shows in the NW. All good quality.