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America Needs Leaders Like This!

Nickodell

Donation Time
OK, here's one a bit more recent: Earl Browder was Secretary General of the American Communist Party from 1930 through its dissolution in 1944, and when it renamed itself the Communist Political Association later that year, Browder was chosen as its president. In subsequent years Browder proudly proclaimed that the ACLU functioned as "a transmission belt" for the party. To deny the ACLU's founding was attached at the hip to communist organizations is to deny what can easily be proven as truth.

The fact is that any good the ACLU has done is far outweighed by the harm. Wherever there is anti-American action, dangerous organizations, and groups determined to prevent this country from protecting itself, you can almost guarantee that ACLU lawyers will be there acting on their behalf pro bono (the ACLU can afford it; they are an immensely wealthy organization, receiving not only millions in contribuitions from empty-headed people, but also our Federal tax dollars).

To cite all the cases to support the contention that the ACLU is a subversive organization would take a week. Here are a few key cases:

NAMBLA, the North American Man-Boy Love Association is a Massachusetts group whose purpose is to promote sexual intercourse between adult men and pre-pubescent young boys. One of its many publications has been called "The Rape and Escape Manual." Its actual title is "The Survival Manual: The Man's Guide to Staying Alive in Man-Boy Sexual Relationships."
It details how to build relationships with children, how to gain the confidence of children's parents, where to go to have sex with children so as not to get caught and, if one gets caught, on when to leave America and how to rip off credit card companies to get cash to finance your flight.

In 1997 two men who had avidly read the NAMBLA publications kidnapped a young boy, Jeffrey Curley, raped him, killed him by stuffing his mouth with a rag doused in gasoline, raped the cadaver and dumped it. In his diary, one of the murderers said he had had reservations about having sex with children until he discovered NAMBLA the previous year. The practical, step-by-step advice he followed goes far beyond appeals to sway public opinion in favor of pedophilia. Such language aids and abets felonious conduct. If such conspiracy results in homicide, it is reasonable for NAMBLA to face civil liability if not criminal prosecution.

Jeffrey Curley's parents sued NAMBLA, contending that their literature helped to cause the death of their son. The ACLU is defending them, free.

Ohio's Court of Appeals found NAMBLA complicit in an earlier child-rape case. NAMBLA's literature, discovered in a defendant's possession reflected "preparation and purpose," according to the Buckeye State's top bench.

Now while the ACLU has offered material support to those who openly preach pedophilia and arguably encourage kidnapping, rape, and murder they are energetically hostile to an organization that tries to turn boys into men.

Since 1915, the Boy Scouts have managed land within San Diego's Balboa Park. It has built a swimming pool, a 600-seat amphitheater, and a camping facility that accommodates 300. Camp Balboa serves some 12,000 Boy Scouts annually through daylong events and weekend sleepovers. The Scouts' tie to this land is a 50-year lease offered by the San Diego City Council and signed in 1957. In exchange for their stewardship — including private investment for maintenance and development — the Scouts hand the city an annual lease payment of $1.00.

This arrangement is too much for the ACLU to swallow. It sued the City of San Diego to expel the Boy Scouts from Balboa Park. The ACLU contends that the Scouts are a religious organization and thus should be dislodged from the facility. Never mind that the Scouts did not bar other groups from using the park. In fact, according to Hans Zeiger, an 18-year-old Eagle Scout who has written about this controversy, Balboa Park hosted last summer's San Diego Gay Pride Festival.

The ACLU found a liberal judge to compel the City of San Diego to cancel the Scouts' lease on the park, even though it did not expire until 2007 and, in fact, had been extended in 2001 for 25 years. The ACLU also scored $950,000 in attorneys fees and court costs, thus fleecing taxpayers and deepening its pockets.

The ACLU filed a lawsuit in Michigan for a student to be allowed to wear a t-shirt to school depicting President Bush as an international terrorist, in contravention of the school's rule barring political material. When another student was prevented from wearing a t-shirt saying "Support our Troops," the ACLU was nowhere to be seen.

A mantra today is that "we cannot round up and deport the 12 [maybe 20] million illegal aliens in the USA." No, but if they are prevented from working, they will probably return home on their own. To this end, in 2005 the Dept. of Homeland Security and Social Security Admin. has mailed out millions of "no-match" notices to employers where an employee's name, Social Security # etc. do not match (most of the illegal workers have forged S.S. cards), and explaining what the employer must do if the worker cannot verify the information. The DHS considers this an essential immigration enforcement tool. The ACLU shopped around, as usual, to find a liberal judge before whom they could convince to issue a restraining order preventing the DHS and SSA from mailing any more "no-match" notices.

The Minutemen, as you know, simply exercize the right of every American citizen to report law-breaking to the authorities. They are not "Vigilantes." They are not armed, nor do they physically confront illegal aliens breaking into our country. They simply inform the Border Patrol officers when they spot them. Unofficially, Border Patrol officers say that without the help of the Minutemen they would not apprehend half of the current number.

The ACLU has dispatched "monitors" to dog the Minutemen, help the illegals evade them, and even, it is reported, act in some cases as trouble-makers so that the ever-present TV cameras can catch some confrontation. This is all no surprise to those who have seen the ACLU's looney liberal "open-borders" agenda, from supporting driver's licenses for illegals to opposition to detaining illegal alien terror suspects after 9/11, or profiling foreigners from terror-friendly countries, to its efforts to stop local and state law-enforcement officers from helping Immigration and Homeland Security efforts.

Recently, the ACLU sued to prevent New York City from randomly examining the backpacks of subway riders (the same kind of backpacks used by the Madrid and London train bombers).

And on it goes.

A good book about the ACLU is Alan Sears and Craig Osten's The ACLU vs America: Exposing the Agenda (Broadman & Holman, 2005).
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Nick, tell the Boy Scouts you are an atheist or are representing an atheist group and see how far you get with them. You can't even be a Cub Scout Den Leader. They are a SELF proclaimed religion based organization. But that is beside the point.

Keep this in mind: ACLU can only sue. They do not make law, they do not rule on law. They purposely look for the most extreme cases to litigate in order to ensure the resulting judicial opinion has the most impact. If their position is upheld, your rights are enhanced. If not, the lines are more clearly drawn. Pretty simple.

Individual case do not matter. Things have to be done "by the book", or in this case, the Constitution. We Americans claim to be proud of that document, but raise a fuss when someone demands we follow it.

Simply stated, it has to be followed all the time. What is so complicated about that?
Bill
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Bill,

Which religion?

It seems anyone that worships a supreme being. Witches, pagans, atheists, etc. are not welcomed and face expulsion. I imagine there are some strange and arbitrary lines drawn, but that's what happens when you discriminate.

By the way, Nick can shut me up pretty easily. All he has to do is show me the exclusion clause in the Bill of Rights.
Bill
 

husky drvr

Platinum Level Sponsor
It seems anyone that worships a supreme being. I imagine there are some strange and arbitrary lines drawn, but that's what happens when you discriminate.

Bill

Let me see if I understand.

What you are saying is something like: "The United States Of America is discriminating against illegal aliens because the alien individual will not granted citizenship immediately when they cross the border." Then you justify that position by stating that it is not prevented in the Bill of Rights. Maybe we can get Congress to legislate that any American citizen will automatically have citizenship bestowed to any foreign country that the person may visit.


I think you will find the ACLU position on the Boy Scouts is more that the Scouts should not be able limit membership if the Scouts receive support from any government entity ( such as government endowed United Way programs ), financial or otherwise. Furthermore, the Boy Scouts should not be allowed to have that support in the first place.

I don't think the Scouts or any one else would stop the ACLU from starting their own youth program that provides the same benefits as the Scouts without having the Scouts' beliefs involved. That will not happen will it? Those beliefs are what distinguish the Boy Scouts of America from other groups. If someone does not feel they can embrace the Boy Scout's position, then why would they want to join?
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
husky drvr;14269]Let me see if I understand.

"What you are saying is something like: "The United States Of America is discriminating against illegal aliens because the alien individual will not granted citizenship immediately when they cross the border." Then you justify that position by stating that it is not prevented in the Bill of Rights. Maybe we can get Congress to legislate that any American citizen will automatically have citizenship bestowed to any foreign country that the person may visit."

No I'm not and cannot figure out how you came up with that. If the ACLU feels that way, I'm okay with it as the courts make the final decision, not the ACLU. Beside, If I only associated with people/organizations I agree with 100%, there would be no one to talk to.

I think illegal aliens have the right to go home and that's about it. However, they are people and as we deal with them, we have to follow the Constitution. Cannot jail people for renting houses to them, etc. But that is not what this exchange is about.


"I think you will find the ACLU position on the Boy Scouts is more that the Scouts should not be able limit membership if the Scouts receive support from any government entity ( such as government endowed United Way programs ), financial or otherwise. Furthermore, the Boy Scouts should not be allowed to have that support in the first place."

Yep. And they should not be allowed to have that support because the Boy Scouts claim they are not a "public accommodation" (I think that's the term) so they can reserve the right to discriminate.

"I don't think the Scouts or any one else would stop the ACLU from starting their own youth program that provides the same benefits as the Scouts without having the Scouts' beliefs involved. That will not happen will it?"

Not likely.

"Those beliefs are what distinguish the Boy Scouts of America from other groups. If someone does not feel they can embrace the Boy Scout's position, then why would they want to join?"

Those beliefs make the Scouts like most churches. Most have youth activities. Not very unique. Some people would like to volunteer for the Scouts (all of the real work is done by volunteers) as they realize that overall, it is a good thing for the youth and as stated above, an alternative is not likely. They are barred from doing that if they do not fit the mold. Most boys do not realize how narrow minded the Scouts are on this issue. They join and when they do find out, keep their mouths shut in order to enjoy the Scouting activities. The Scouts have a few litmus tests that have little or no relationship to 99% of the Scouting activities.

Bill
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
Bill; several points:

1) Getting a court decision is not, per se, significant. An organization bent on mischief, like the ACLU, can always find some looney activist judge, or court, not concerned with applying the Constitution but rather in making law, which is the absolute prerogative of the legislature, not the judiciary. As an example, decisions of the 9th. Circuit Court of Appeals, which is one frequently turned to by the ACLU, are overturned more often than any other.

The 9th. C.C. of A. accounted for both 30 percent of the cases (24 of 80) and 30 percent of the reversals (18 of 59) the Supreme Court decided by full written opinions this term. In addition, the 9th Circuit was responsible for more than a third (35%, or 8 of 23) of the High Court’s unanimous reversals that were issued by published opinions. Thus, on the whole, the 9th Circuit’s rulings accounted for more reversals this past term than all the state courts across the country combined and represented nearly half of the overturned judgments (45%) of the federal appellate courts.

You have to remember that many of the long-haired, pot-smoking hippie college students turned to the law and are now lawyers and judges, and just because they are now middle-aged and sitting on the bench doesn't mean that they lost their liberal, peacenik, anti-military philosophy.

2) The ACLU's main problem with the Scouts is far less to do with its religious policy than its policy regarding homosexuals. You can be a Scout, and Eagle Scout, even a scoutmaster and also a homosexual; however, you can't be if you openly declare your homosexuality. This is only common sense, and in this the Scouts are following the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy of the Military (instituted, I would reming you, by Bill "I Loathe the Military" Clinton). Several scoutmasters have tested the policy by declaring their sexual orientation and defying the organization to do anything about it. The ACLU's affection for NAMBLA says all one needs to know about that.

Incidentally, I did a little research (always a good idea in contentious subjects) that you may find interesting regarding "coercive interrogation," or torture as the "mustn't be beastly to the terrorists" types call it. George Tenet (ex-head of the CIA) and Michael Scheuer have written a great book detailing the results it obtains. They detail how the CIA broke 14 high-ranking al-Qaeda leaders via coercive interrogation, of which waterboarding was the worst technique used. Before being allowed to use it, the interrogators themselves were required to undergo the treatment so as to know first hand what it felt like.

13 of the 14 great, tough terror leaders broke after 20-30 seconds. The one holdout, Khalid Sheik Mohammad - mastermind, you may recall, of the 9/11 attack - took nearly 2 minutes. The results, contradicting the Conventional Wisdom, were not "garbage." These brave soldiers of Allah gave names and addresses of other al-Qaeda members in Europe and this country, and as a result at least 12 terror plots were forestalled, including an attack on the tallest building in L.A. (The Library Tower).

Torture of al-Q operatives in Pakistan (the real thing) led to the arrest of the 20 members in London who were well on the way with their plans to hijack and blow up 20 US airliners over the Atlantic in September 2006. Despite all this, people such as Carrol Bogert, Associate Director of Human Rights Watch soundly condemns even waterboarding. Shocking! Un-American!

Human Rights, Civil Liberties, Geneva Conventions, No Coercive Interrogation, Give the Terrorists Lawyers: nice, warm, cuddly-puppy stuff that, taken too far, can get us all reduced to our constituent molecules and sent off into the stratosphere in a millisecond.
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Nick, you've won me over. We don't need no stinkin' Constitution. Big Brother and Dick Cheney will look after us. No sweat.

Bill
 

Jim E

Donation Time
When I was a kid oh maybe 17 bunch of us thought we wanted to move down under, we got to looking into it and seems we were not on the list of those they wanted. Guess they had all the lay about hillbillies they needed, Hoons are they called? We could visit just not stay. Fast forward 30 some years and I bet I am still not on the list of folks who can come live there, not much call for a smut merchant, well there is a call everywhere then just lots of folks who will not admit it... like the US gov fellow here a while back who was on record as being anti homo then got busted playing footsy in a restroom... guess we should just shoot that lying homo, for lying not for being a homo. To me this is one of the worst kinds of lying there is...Oh look at me, I am a law maker and will make sure those kinds of people are put in thier place, we don't need their kind in our god fearing country.... then the same two faced pecker heads do stuff like text message Pages for sex and play under the stall wall games in public rest rooms. Oh we can trust these conservative corn holers no doubt. The sad thing is I bet they are like **** roaches you catch one and know there must be a boat load more you never see...
I find the water boarding example pretty funny actually, think about it... "ok you have to try this so you know what it feels like when you do it. Yeah I bet that is pretty scary being you know they are not going to kill you. Should have grabbed them out of bed in the middle of the night and told them they were suspected of something, not what, then gave them a ride in the pool.
What is really cool is how the TOP officials can just say nope screw you that is classified you cannot ask about that, sorry that is my guy and here is a get out of jail free card.
Yeah the ACLU does some stuff I do not like but they are in your face with it no hiding in crappers. then again I figure they got secrets just like everyone else.
Me I don't want any law makers from down under, this is one Hoon who figures we got a gracious plenty already and if I got to make up a list of who could come here that is one job discription that would not make the list. So I guess if you want those guys to run things for you you could just move down under, that is if they will let you in....
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
Nick, you've won me over. We don't need no stinkin' Constitution. Big Brother and Dick Cheney will look after us. No sweat. Bill

WHEW! It took a while, but it looks as if we'll make a Republican of you yet. Nah; on second thoughts, what difference would it make? Time was when Republicans resisted the runaway Welfare State imposed by successive Democrat governments. Today, you can't tell them apart; they both buy votes and ensure their reelection by bribing the current voters at the expense of the future ones. I say a pox on both their houses.

According to the U.S. Supreme Court, the Constitution has “evolved” to mean just about the opposite of what everyone used to understand it to mean. In fact, modern jurisprudence has rendered most of the Constitution’s text superfluous, nugatory, or hopelessly confusing. The Constitution lists just two dozen powers of Congress, but Congress has arrogated to itself, and now exercises, thousands of unlisted powers.

The flaw in democracy begins when people learn to vote themselves benefits at other people’s expense. And those benefits then become politically untouchable, as we know too well. Governments are made to be bribed. The bigger they get, the more surely they will become corrupt. Power has a market value, and concentrating power increases the pressure, usually through the medium of money.

The worst twist in American democracy is that the voters have learned to pass the stupendous costs of the welfare state on to the next generation. It’s bad enough when some voters force other voters to support them. But the American voter has learned to force nonvoters to bear his expenses, by deferring payment to the next generation.

The next time you pass a playground, look at all those little nonvoters, oblivious of what awaits them, and ask yourself if it’s really honest to teach them that they will someday enjoy self-government. In what sense are they governing themselves, if, before they even enter the voting booth for the first time, they are already saddled with huge debts they had no part in incurring and will have no way of escaping? Is that what our ancestors meant by self-government — or is it more akin to what they called “involuntary servitude”?

Wasn’t the Constitution supposed to forbid such overweening power of one part of the community over another? No doubt. But as usual, nature has found the flaw in the system. The federal government has used a few clauses in the Constitution — notably the Commerce Clause and a few phrases in the Fourteenth Amendment — to virtually nullify the rest of the Constitution, turning a limited confederation of sovereign states into an all- powerful centralized government, always at the service of the greedy.

Now, where the hell is my Social Security check? Late again, the buggers.
 

mikephillips

Donation Time
Of course the founders never envisioned a permanent class of political leadership. They saw those who would serve a week here and a week there and really not take anything. Naive perhaps to think that a political class wouldn't develop over time, but perhaps we're lucky it took this long to screw it up.
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
About the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution, in the year 1787, Alexander Tyler (a Scottish history professor at The University of Edinburgh) had this to say about "The Fall of The Athenian Republic," some 2,000 years prior:

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.

"From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.

"The average tenure of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

From bondage to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to complacency;
From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependence;
From dependence back into bondage."

I'd say we are between the 6th. and 7th. stages right now. Question is: who will our new bondsmasters be?
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
Yeah, we gotta fight 'em TOUGH, like in the big one - Dubya Dubya Two - where the fate of the whole world was on the line.
Here's an article from a couple of days ago on how our interrogators made mincemeat of captured Nazis.http://archives.seattletimes.nwsour...ug=torturevets06&date=20071006&query=box+1142

Interesting - but irrelevant. By 1943 or, at the latest, 1944, any senior German officer or scientist, other than a few rabid foaming-at-the-mouth Nazis, knew that the war was lost. Herman Goering, for example, on seeing P51D Mustangs over Berlin said "we've lost." Rommel was one of the conspirators trying to assassinate Hitler and end the war. On hearing of the allied airborne attacks in Operation Market Garden (Arnhem), the senior general, on being asked what they should do, replied "end the war, you fool."

On being captured, none of them had any motivation to hold out against interrogation. Closer to the end of the European war, the only thing any of them wanted to do was surrender to the Americans or British, rather than the Soviets. And none of them had Weapons of Mass Destruction, other than poison gas which neither side used. Their sole interest was in saving their hides and keeping out of Soviet hands.

Contrast this with the current bunch of Islamic fanatics, who not only do not fear death, they actively welcome it. Also, although the Germans managed to infiltrate agents into the US and Britain, they were almost all quickly rounded up. In the States they were usually shot after a brief "trial." In Britain they were given a choice - a bullet in the head or, an offer almost all found they couldn't refuse, cooperate by sending back false information to Germany. The Islamics terrorists, by contrast, are here in their hundreds, maybe thousands, living among us; some for many years and others for generations.

For example: Abdurahman Alamoudi, an American citizen who was the prime mover behind the American Muslim Council (AMC) and a number of other U.S.-based Islamist-sympathizing organizations, is the man who certified 75 Muslim chaplains for service in the U.S. Armed Forces. ( Most of these chaplains preach the extreme Wahabi form of Islam to our Muslim troops). He is a self-described supporter of Hamas and Hezbollah and was arrested at Heathrow last summer as he flew in from Libya on his way back to Washington. He had a little contretemps at the airport, unable to give British customs a plausible explanation for the $340,000 he was carrying in cash.

Mr. Alamoudi, now in jail in Virginia awaiting trial for allegedly lying to immigration authorities, was the most prominent leader of the Muslim World League in America, a Wahhabi Saudi front, made up of some 40 groups run by a small circle of trusted and wealthy individuals and was directly involved in 16 Islamist front organizations. The network is controlled through four different layers of front organizations connected to Muslim charities and businesses in Northern Virginia. The FBI has gathered enough evidence to put away several prominent figures.

The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) stubbornly refuses to concede that there are several thousand American Muslims — out of 6 million — who applaud the events of September 11, 2001, and firmly believe the U.S. is the fount of all global evil. Some 400 are currently being monitored 24/7 by the FBI. Either they have been fingered by Islamist prisoners — interrogated in Guantanamo, Bagram air base near Kabul, a U.S. Navy brig, and prisons in European countries — or phone taps or e-mail intercepts have shown their verbal propensity for violence against the hated American enemy. Organizations like the ACLU hold up their hands in horror at this, and are determined to bring an end to this form of intelligence-gathering, which must bring broad smiles to the terrorists faces.

They are biding their time, probing our defenses and looking for weaknesses to exploit as they did on 9/11. To their probable glee, liberal lunatics in this country are doing much of their work for them. The news is replete with organizations like the ACLU acting to prevent any meaningful screening of airline, train or subway passengers, for example. American Airlines and United Airlines (the two that were hijacked in 2001, remember) have been sued for millions of dollars, with liberal lawyers doing the legwork, for subjecting too many Islamic or Arab-looking young men to intensive searches.

Carl Marx said, many years ago: The capitalists will sell to us the rope which we will use to hang them. The Islamic fanatics must be thinking something similar, that many in the West are busily doing all the heavy lifting for them by preventing any meaningful way of stopping, or even identifying, them.
 

Jim E

Donation Time
If you are going to moderate, edit "**** roaches" then you need to do the same with "liberal lunatics". Being liberal is not a dirty word even if the conservative nut jobs try and make it sound that way. Which is actually a very smart thing to do on there side.


hahahahaahha it is the word filter that removed the cockroach, hahahahah and I thought it was some conservative **** roach, hahaha sorry
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
Jim: Read it again. I have not said that all liberals are lunatics, any more than all conservatives are bible-thumping ractionaries, all Muslims are homicidal maniacs or the word Yankee should always be preceded by Damn.' It is the extreme end of the liberal scale, as in Moveon.org, Nancy "Too Many Facelifts" Pelosi, etc. that is a danger to this country.

For example, the judge that the ACLU and the AFL/CIO took their case to has just issued an injunction blocking the Social Security Administration, at the behest of Homeland Security, from issuing "no-match" notices to employers when their workers list S.S. numbers that do not match their personal data. Let us hope that the Administration appeals this to the Supreme Court.

Bill: score one for the ACLU.
 

skywords

Donation Time
I would just like to see some common sense prevail for a change. I am an independent.

Our stores filled with made in USA goods.

A trade surplus instead of 26.5 billion a month deficit. ( does anyone grasp the magnitude of that?)

It's seems every decision that has been made in the past twenty years in regards to the fiscal well being of the US has been wrong.

We are fighting a war with borrowed money from China, Ding Dong!

The company that is in charge of the feeding, clothing, fueling, housing our troops is now a foreign company based in the U.A.E. Ding Dong!

Our bridges and highways are crumbling! I know I drive them everyday for eight plus hours with 50 + children aboard. There is a bridge I cringe when crossing for I fear it is going to collapse.

We are being flushed down the o'l poop chute to make a handful of powerful people very very very wealthy.

This all old news but needs rehashing now and then before we start congratulating any current leaders of any party. They have all flubbed it if you ask me.
 

Hillman

Gold Level Sponsor
Please don't flame the Canuck for sticking his head in here (ducking now). Until I read this thread, I thought I was conservative, but.

I don't believe in any supreme being.
I don't believe in a welfare state (even if I live in one).
I don't believe government does what's best for me.
I don't believe that courts should make law (although in the US the judges are elected rather than appointed as they are here in Canuckistan) so maybe there it's semi-OK.
I don't believe that you should be jailed/tortured/killed for what you think, but I do believe that maybe these sanctions should exist for what you do.
I don't believe that governments can torture people I don't like or agree with but they won't torture me.
I don't believe that current 'democracies' are governments 'by the people, of the people and for the people' (may not be an exact definition).

I guess I'm not. What am I?

On the other hand, I do believe that every radical/extremist/nut-case should be forced to restore an Alpine and maybe they'd forget all the other insanity.
 
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