'66 Alpine Negative-Positive thing

[rixter]

Hello,

I am a newbie, both as a new 1966 Alpine owner and new to the forum. I am trying to figure something out with this car with respect to the orientation of the elecftrical system. EVERYTHING I've researched thus far has pointed to this model (V), being a negative ground vehicle. However, the previous owner has the positive side of the battery going to ground at the battery case and the negative side (black wire in this car), going to the solenoid. Hooking things up the "proper" way (negative to ground, positive toward the solenoid), has the starter working properly, all lights, wipers, turn signals and horn working properly. But the electric fuel pump (I'm assuming an update to the car), appears to be running backwards. That makes some sense if he had the battery attached the other way, but I find that very odd. Were there any circumstances where someone would desire to return this particular model back to a positive ground setup? I thought from my research that the recommendation was to switch the earlier models TO negative ground. My goal is to return things to the standard set up. This car definitely has an alternator. My additional question would be "what else is going to be sensitive to reverse polarity that I need to be aware of?".

Thank you.

Rick

 

[gordonra]

Hi and welcome to the Alpine world!

The previous owner of my Series V installed the battery backwards (battery positive to ground). The car started and ran fine, but there were some problems. Upon investigation I discovered the following:

The tach failed to read any anything
The ammeter wasnt working
Water and fuel gauges seemed to work fine
No output from alternator

The ammeter was open and had been jumpered out, and the voltage regulator was burned up. However when connected properly, the tach began working normally.

Replacing the voltage regulator, and repair/reconnect of the ammeter and all was well again.

Good luck with yours, and feel free to ask any questions!

Rich

 

[Ken Ellis]

Rick, welcome. We promise you'll have fun!

But first, we're gonna pepper you with questions.
I agree with your SV research. I''d recommend, though, that you verify the car itself is actually SV, and not SIV. Check the VIN against the data on this site, for one. And check that the VIN plate has original rivets. It may be that a SIV parts car was used to restore the SV -- things of a positive ground nature like tach(?), radio, etc.
Lights, horns don't care about polarity.

On the fuel pump, is it actually plumbed per the labels -- input/output?

And you have already switched the battery cables and run the car?

I'm pretty sure the alternator, and battery won't like that -- but I've never tried something like that...

 

[65beam]

neg / pos

the only instrument that would pose a problem if you switch the battery terminals around is your tach. if it is a positive ground tach, it will read " positive ground " at the bottom of the tach face. it will not work if hooked up negative ground. if it has an amp guage, reversal of the wires is easy. whether it is a series 4 or 5 is not really an issue. the wiring on all series of alpines is basicly the same. i have a series 4 with a series 5 negative ground wiring harness. all of my series 2 based cars are now negative ground. since they have cable drive tachs that wasn't a problem. i would suggest that you check that the alternator is working. better yet, is it a lucas alternator? if so, there were two types used in the 60's. the original for the series 5 is large in diameter and has an external regulator as does the smaller diameter that was used starting in 68. if possible ,post some photos. that would probably get you some answers.

 

[rixter]

More info provided..

Hello,

First thing I want to say is how impressed I am that I got meaningful responses to my post so quickly. Thanks much.

As far as the "you are going to have fun" comment, I am reminded of the phrase "are we having fun yet?" I know I will get there soon and am excited about the possibility. Starting to eat my food with the fork in the left hand hasn't gotten me to a better understanding of these British cars as yet. It helps immensely having a great resource here.

I am attaching some photos to help clarify my situation. I am confident I have a V here based on the serial tag in addition to other clues, but I am learning that it is not uncommon for people to switch up parts to the degree that a whole car could become different than it's original creation.

The tach says "Negative earth". It has no ammeter. Perhaps someone can identify the connections on the alternator that is a Lucas. The fuel pump is difficult to see the maker without removal. I see no inlet or outlet markings. Perhaps I shouldn't assume that a pump with just one electrical lead (ground via mount), will pump fuel out the other fuel line connection when reversed. My thinking was that the fuel line connections server as inlet and outlet depending on which way you have the electrical hooked to it.

As far as having it running while attached this way, I have not gotten the car running as yet... just turned over the motor with the starter and that works well. My first step was understanding the electrical system and that is where I got grounded (pun intended). It didn't help that the battery wire going to the solenoid (positive) is black, and the probably replaced since original negative wire is red and the terminal ends were adjusted to the wrong battery post. I have accepted the fact that between what the previous did and me trying to hook it up the way it was done at the factory may not be friendly to the alternator. I disconnected the large lead from the alternator while checking out other electrical components. The car has been sitting for a bit and I have to do several things before I attempt to fire it up. A famous line heard across the auto world... "it was running when it was parked there".

Thanks much.
Rick

 

[Tom H]

I'd say you have a SV. and I think you have an original SV alternator. And you have a SV tach. So I am guessing your car is really Neg earth and someone installed the battery backwards.

The original cables were black - both Pos and Neg cables, so maybe that's what caused the mix up.

Maybe the PO hooked up the fuel lines backwards at the pump and then reversed the battery to make it work?? But reverse battery would make the tach and Alt not work. Everything else would work.

My suggestion would be to reverse the fuel lines and keep the battery "Proper" as you have done.


Tom

 

[RootesRacer]

I'd say you have a SV. and I think you have an original SV alternator. And you have a SV tach. So I am guessing your car is really Neg earth and someone installed the battery backwards.

The original cables were black - both Pos and Neg cables, so maybe that's what caused the mix up.

Maybe the PO hooked up the fuel lines backwards at the pump and then reversed the battery to make it work?? But reverse battery would make the tach and Alt not work. Everything else would work.

My suggestion would be to reverse the fuel lines and keep the battery "Proper" as you have done.


Tom

Agree with all except the point on the pump being backwards.
There should be a once way valve that allows pump flow in one direction regardless of polarity.

In fact if the pump can function in either polarity without giving up its smoke, its probably a points type pump and it will pump the same direction with either polarity. That is the solenoid and points will not care the direction of current flow.

If however it does nothing with the alternate polarity, there may be some solid state electronics that prevents its function and you have no choice but to change wiring polarity or replace the pump altogether.

As grungy as the pump looks, I'd remove it and install a new facet style pump or go with the well proven and oft maligned stock mechanical pump.

 

[Tom H]

Agree with all except the point on the pump being backwards.
There should be a once way valve that allows pump flow in one direction regardless of polarity.

In spite of this comment I think Jarrid and I actually agree. If the pump pumps toward the tank, you can solve the issue by reversing the fuel lines more likely than by reversing the wire polariity. Or better yet, reinstall an original mechanical one.

Tom

 

[rixter]

Bendix Electric Fuel Pump

Thanks for your responses. This electric fuel pump is a Bendix, which I understand to be similar to the Facet. This is obviously an older model. I was not able to identify the model, but did see NEG on the pump mounting bracket and OUT on one of the fuel connections.. and that connection is going up to the carbs. It looks like there was only fuel in the lines, not the tank, and therefore the pump was balking at no fuel to move. Running it as it should be with the battery NEG to ground does push the small amount of fuel up to an inline filter I mounted in the engine compartment. I may just go with a new Facet pump as was suggested, but will try to work with this if it functions for now.

Questions: does anyone know if the screen filters for the Facet fit these Bendix models? The Bendix filter looks like a stack of closely spaced bronze rings. If so, is there a flow restriction (micron size) consideration I should be following? On this same subject, I installed the inline fuel filter up front because there was no filter from the pump to the carbs other than that inside the electric fuel pump. Until I know the condition of the tanks, I wanted to have a filter I can see what is passing through. Will this be too restrictive?

Thanks
Rick