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1963 Hillman Husky
- Thread starter SoCal'beaming
- Start date
husky drvr
Platinum Level Sponsor
H,
I don't know. I don't think I've ever seen the bottom of a Minx or Rapier convertible, in the flesh. The WSM's don't have a separate schematic, but probably wouldn't be different dimensions. Hopefully someone else can enlighten the club.
husky drvr
Platinum Level Sponsor
DanR
Diamond Level Sponsor
QUOTE; Dan's modified cross tube will not gain any clearance to relocate the engine rearward. The steering relay arms are a different shape from the Alpine's arms as well.Unquote.
I can easily redesign the cross link for additional clearance. I have even considered it for the 4.0, but then there are more changes to be considered.
I can easily redesign the cross link for additional clearance. I have even considered it for the 4.0, but then there are more changes to be considered.
husky drvr
Platinum Level Sponsor
Dan,
Your ability to design and fabricate parts for these cars is unchallenged. The point I was trying to make is the way the firewall is formed, the crosstube isn't in the way until enough firewall is removed because you've already decided to change the method of steering.
I'm sure you've seen this article at one time. If not it's here because it's informative and others may not have seen it.
Have a good day,
Barry
Diamond Level Sponsor
Don,
Some random thoughts and suppositions based on the Husky being the chicken and the Series Alpine being the egg.
As far as I can tell, the front clips and steering system on the Husky and Series Alpine are dimensionally identical except that the firewall and steering cross tube in the Series Alpine were moved about 3-5/8" toward the rear. Presumably to move the engine back for better weight distribution ???
Since the front suspension crossmember, steering box (driver side) and the steering relay lever assembly (passenger side) are mounted in the same location on both vehicles, moving the steering cross tube toward the rear (along with the firewall) on the Series Alpine would have required that the rear portion of the steering drop arms / swing levers would also have to be extended by about 3-5/8". You previously noted that the steering drop arms / swing levers in the Husky "are a different shape from the Alpine's arms..." Another piece of the puzzle.
My supposition is that using Series Alpine steering drop arms / swing levers in a Husky would allow the Husky firewall and steering cross tube to be moved rearward by about 3-5/8" to match the Series Alpine location. Hmmm?
Some random thoughts and suppositions based on the Husky being the chicken and the Series Alpine being the egg.
As far as I can tell, the front clips and steering system on the Husky and Series Alpine are dimensionally identical except that the firewall and steering cross tube in the Series Alpine were moved about 3-5/8" toward the rear. Presumably to move the engine back for better weight distribution ???
Since the front suspension crossmember, steering box (driver side) and the steering relay lever assembly (passenger side) are mounted in the same location on both vehicles, moving the steering cross tube toward the rear (along with the firewall) on the Series Alpine would have required that the rear portion of the steering drop arms / swing levers would also have to be extended by about 3-5/8". You previously noted that the steering drop arms / swing levers in the Husky "are a different shape from the Alpine's arms..." Another piece of the puzzle.
My supposition is that using Series Alpine steering drop arms / swing levers in a Husky would allow the Husky firewall and steering cross tube to be moved rearward by about 3-5/8" to match the Series Alpine location. Hmmm?
260Alpine
Silver Level Sponsor
Ryan on BritishV8 has a nice Husky build page:
www.britishv8.org
Ryan Reis' Oldsmobile Quad 4 powered 1959 Hillman Husky
Ryan Reis' Oldsmobile Quad 4 powered 1959 Hillman Husky
DanR
Diamond Level Sponsor
I like the "Hmmm". A very good point.
husky drvr
Platinum Level Sponsor
Barry and Dan,
Hmmm - could be. I can't answer that question.
I'll pose a couple of my own.
Why did someone decide the firewall needed to be modified if the V6 fits in an Alpine without that requirement?
Barry, you've declared the front clips are the the same dimensions, I didn't think I implied the firewall would be an impediment. I did mention the Rootes engine is mounted forwards and higher than in the Alpine which implies POSSIBLE sump to cross member and probably at least one of three exhaust tubes per side to cross member interference . If the V6 were mounted in the same relationship as the Rootes engine, it shouldn't be a firewall issue. Different bodies don't usually use the same ancillary parts to to accomplish that feat. So do you want to modify a body to fit existing parts or develop new parts to fit the new conditions? Dan has always been proud of the fact his parts don't require body mods to install and anyone should be able to install his kits. Needing to modify a firewall is far outside, for most, of DIY.
You do realize if you modify the firewall, then for every inch gained in the engine compartment, you've lost that same inch from the foot well inside?
What is the length of the Alpine relay arm from pivot to cross tube - C to C? I don't have one to measure.
Barry
Diamond Level Sponsor
Not my decision or suggestion, but I believe that it is correct. The platform drawings indicate that the Husky engine bay is appreciably shorter than the Series Alpine engine bay (about 3-5/8" by scalar measurement). A Ford 2.8 V6 barely fits lengthwise in a Series Alpine engine bay and I doubt that one would fit in an engine bay that is 3-5/8" shorter.
The distance between the back of the factory radiator and the factory firewall in my S-V is about 26".
What is the "back of radiator to front of firewall" distance in your Husky?
What I posted was "As far as I can tell, the front clips and steering system on the Husky and Series Alpine are dimensionally identical except that the firewall and steering cross tube in the Series Alpine were moved about 3-5/8" toward the rear." A conditional conclusion for sure, possibly even an assumption, but hardly a declaration.
How about this for a proposed declaration? "The drawings referred to in this thread indicate that the front clips and steering system on the Husky and Series Alpine are dimensionally identical except that the firewall and steering cross tube in the Series Alpine are located about 3-5/8" further to the rear."
Do you agree? Disagree? Neither?
I do not want to modify a Husky body to fit a Ford 2.8 V6 engine or to modify a Ford 2.8 V6 engine to fit a Husky body nor am I suggesting that anyone else should do so. I am simply discussing the technical challenges of doing so.
I admire Dan's commitment to providing parts that do not require body modifications and agree that it is a good thing for many of his customers. I don't see what Dan's commitment has to do with my comments or questions.
Agreed that the firewall is a zero-sum game, but I do not see why moving the vertical firewall back would inherently require moving the foot well back.
Not an easy thing to measure because the drop arms / swing levers are not square to anything. On my S-V, the perpendicular distance between the pivot shaft centerline and the center of the hole for the cross tube "tie rod end" is about 6-5/8".
What is the equivalent measurement for the Husky drop arms / swing levers?
Sounds as though the Duratec is not a "good" candidate for swapping. My engine sits a quarter inch (at water outlet) from the firewall and barely has room for a stock location fan. Installation in a car with over 3" removed from the engine compartment would require some extra thinking. I've already notched the cross member. Certainly no room to clap your hands. The good news, the stock crossover tube is not a problem!
To be honest, I'd much rather see another, non-machanist guy install a Duratec into an Alpine. My attempt is machine shop oriented, because that is what I do. An attempt by DanR or another traditional guy would be an eye opener and I'd love to see it.
Bill
To be honest, I'd much rather see another, non-machanist guy install a Duratec into an Alpine. My attempt is machine shop oriented, because that is what I do. An attempt by DanR or another traditional guy would be an eye opener and I'd love to see it.
Bill
husky drvr
Platinum Level Sponsor
Bill,
I've been trying to figure out how best to answer all of Brian's questions. Still working.
Do you think the Duratec is significantly different from a Quad-4, dimension wise?
How does the Duratec compare to the Rootes engine dimensionally?
Do you think a standard Rootes engine would fit in an Alpine engine bay if the bay were shortened about three and a half inches?
Just more questions to ponder.
Have a good day,
DanR
Diamond Level Sponsor
My Early Series SIV BW35 is actually getting an Automatic Transmission, an A4LD that has an Overdrive. I "fitted" the V6 with a T5 before the A4LD.
The engine mount of the passenger side (USA) was modified slightly due to bolt pattern changes by FORD, otherwise all other mount brackets were utilized as designed. The A4LD is actually a bit smaller that the T5 except for the oil pan. The transmission tunnel was cut out long ago along with the rest of the floor panels due to the rusty condition when I came into possession. I built around the opening for the transmission I had selected back in 2008 - 09 when I purchased Jose's Kit. I started the 2.8 Project w/T5 using Jose stuff, advanced to different engine mounts and then straight back headers with the BW35 Alpine becoming the Guinea Pig for all of my components.
Finally, totally restored metal and new paint, I am attempting to get the fuel and ignition systems designed one of these days, months years, etc.,
Don, three questions in one post is a bit much for this old codger. So I've taken the liberty to number them in the order they were posted, along with my answer:
Ques. #1 - no idea
Ques. #2 - no idea
Ques. #3 - no idea
There. That outta settle ALL engine swapping questions.
I will add that talking about modern four banger engine size, don't forget to consider the manifolding. They were probably more of problem for me than the engine. The stock Duratec intake manifold would extend past the brake master cylinder, maybe even encroach a bit upon the clutch. Don't even mention height. But the stock exhaust might even be usable.
Bill
Ques. #1 - no idea
Ques. #2 - no idea
Ques. #3 - no idea
There. That outta settle ALL engine swapping questions.
I will add that talking about modern four banger engine size, don't forget to consider the manifolding. They were probably more of problem for me than the engine. The stock Duratec intake manifold would extend past the brake master cylinder, maybe even encroach a bit upon the clutch. Don't even mention height. But the stock exhaust might even be usable.
Bill
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husky drvr
Platinum Level Sponsor
LOL Yeah...
The only reason I asked you those questions was I was thinking you had crossed paths with and had a good OOGLE at this gentleman's installation. Oh well.
"mgbreis" on this board.
Ryan Reis' Oldsmobile Quad 4 powered 1959 Hillman Husky
Ryan Reis' Oldsmobile Quad 4 powered 1959 Hillman Husky
The two ?'s about the Rootes engine I was sure were "no knowledge" but worth a try.
Have fun,
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husky drvr
Platinum Level Sponsor
Ok, here's some measurements - folding stick rule, tape measure, and plastic woodworking caliper type resolution - Maybe up to +/- 0.5 inch res.
Rootes engine:
water pump (late fan installed) to back of head ............. 23 inches
water pump (late fan installed) to rear of block bellhousing surface................ 24 inches
==============
Steering relay arm pivot to cross tube pivot ( C to C) ............. 5 3/4 inches
original Husky radiator is 2 1/4 or 2 3/4 inches at core and side bracket
radiator support panel to firewall runs from 27 1/4 to 30 1/4 inches depending on height of measurement
additionally, the vertical distance from wheel well top to bonnet rain gutter is about 5 3/4 inches, Alpine is much less
Take note, the radiator support surface forward to the rear of the concave grill surface is 4 1/2 inches.
Rootes engine:
water pump (late fan installed) to back of head ............. 23 inches
water pump (late fan installed) to rear of block bellhousing surface................ 24 inches
==============
Steering relay arm pivot to cross tube pivot ( C to C) ............. 5 3/4 inches
original Husky radiator is 2 1/4 or 2 3/4 inches at core and side bracket
radiator support panel to firewall runs from 27 1/4 to 30 1/4 inches depending on height of measurement
additionally, the vertical distance from wheel well top to bonnet rain gutter is about 5 3/4 inches, Alpine is much less
Take note, the radiator support surface forward to the rear of the concave grill surface is 4 1/2 inches.
husky drvr
Platinum Level Sponsor
'59 Hillman Husky Quad 4
Hi, I joined a few days ago and thought I'd introduce myself and my Hillman. I'm a longtime mgb owner but have always liked Alpines. Just a few weeks ago I bought a modified Hillman Husky and since then have been doing research. I had no idea how close the Hillman is related to the Alpines...
I think this was mgbreis first post on this forum. Gives an idea of what his project was like when he started.