1959 Rapier electrical harness

[Chrisp Rapier]

I have been working for the past week on chasing electrical gremlins after I have installed a (slightly better) wire harness from my parts car into my project Rapier. This is a series 2 and the wiring diagrams I have do not exactly match my vehicle. The one I have that is the best is for a Minx series 2. I seem to have wires (green wires) that are negative leads, that when the ignition switch is not engaged, show a ground positive. I am not entirely clear on what should show positive and what should show negative. For example: I have a "smart tester" that shows whether a lead is negative or positive. When I connect to the coil on either side, when ignition is not engaged, shows a positive ground when I check either lead. Is this proper? Same is true on the generator. Is this normal? I have been busy trying to isolate my problem spots. I did find a problem with my temperature gage I believe.

I guess my first question is: Should all leads that are supposed to be energized by the ignition switch to switch on a negative, when not engaged should the just be "off" showing neither neg or pos.?

 

[husky drvr]

C-R,

When chasing circuits, don't forget these cars were originally set up as Positive ground.

I think you have that in hand.

Be aware if you test a completed circuit in the middle, the powered voltage before the load should be negative. If the power is cut, then you will still have the ground beyond the load showing as a complete circuit - but as positive ground.

You might want to recheck with the circuit ground disconnected. I'm fairly sure there are no flip-flop circuits.

I can send you a copy of a series I Rapier wiring diagram if you think it might help. If so, let me know and tell me if you need a chart with or without reverse lights.

Hope this helps,

 

[Chrisp Rapier]

C-R,

When chasing circuits, don't forget these cars were originally set up as Positive ground.

I think you have that in hand.

Be aware if you test a completed circuit in the middle, the powered voltage before the load should be negative. If the power is cut, then you will still have the ground beyond the load showing as a complete circuit - but as positive ground.

You might want to recheck with the circuit ground disconnected. I'm fairly sure there are no flip-flop circuits.

I can send you a copy of a series I Rapier wiring diagram if you think it might help. If so, let me know and tell me if you need a chart with or without reverse lights.

Hope this helps,

Yes please send me this Rapier series 1 diagram. Without reverse lights. I think you have kind of answered my question. When I cut the power on a given circuit my test light showed it go from green to red. Now I understand that it is still a completed circuit but as a positive ground from beyond the load. I guess that means the load like a light bulb or a thermometer sensor allow the completed circuit to positive ground, when the power is interrupted. Do I have that right?

 

[husky drvr]

C-R,

I think that's correct.

PM has been sent.

 

[hartmandm]

If you are chasing gremlins, consider using a multi-meter so you can see the voltages and measure resistances between a given test point and the chassis.

Mike

 

[Chrisp Rapier]

If you are chasing gremlins, consider using a multi-meter so you can see the voltages and measure resistances between a given test point and the chassis.

Mike

I did use my multi-meter to establish what wires were going where but I did not check voltage or resistances to ground. I am guessing I am shooting for 12v. What would be sub optimal for a resistance to ground?

 

[hartmandm]

It all depends on where your test point is, and for some wires, the state of the ignition switch or dash switches. Your battery voltage is probably around 12.6V. For some test points you will have one or more bulbs in between the test point and chassis. I'm not sure what resistance you would see on those, but it should be some number of ohms.

What are the specific electrical issues you are chasing?

Mike

 

[Chrisp Rapier]

It all depends on where your test point is, and for some wires, the state of the ignition switch or dash switches. Your battery voltage is probably around 12.6V. For some test points you will have one or more bulbs in between the test point and chassis. I'm not sure what resistance you would see on those, but it should be some number of ohms.

What are the specific electrical issues you are chasing?

Mike

It's a good question! I am not getting a temp change on my thermo gauge but I am ignoring that for now.I had most things functioning when the dash was all opened up. Everything was functioning that I have hooked up for the most part. Flashers, ignition, headlights and dimmer, vent fan I hooked up on a separate toggle. I even opened up the windshield wiper motor and mended and replaced some wires. It then worked. All seemed good. Then I put the lower console in place and the ignition switch in place. At this point I lost my flashers and the wipers stopped working. I figured I was grounding out somewhere or a lead came loose. I checked all. I cannot find the problem. I was able to get the flashers and wipers to work when I disconnected a lead from the ignition dash light. Very odd I thought. So something is wired wrong somewhere. I then went about checking all leads again.

 

[hartmandm]

You mentioned things were working when hooked up to a separate toggle. Were you using the toggle switch as a temporary replacement for not having an ignition switch and simulating ignition "off" and ignition "run" positions?

 

[Chrisp Rapier]

You mentioned things were working when hooked up to a separate toggle. Were you using the toggle switch as a temporary replacement for not having an ignition switch and simulating ignition "off" and ignition "run" positions?

No no, The toggle switch is just for the heater vent fan. My ignition switch has been wired up and working. In fact it continued to work to start the engine even though the flashers and wiper motor stopped.

 

[hartmandm]

Are flashers the turn signal indicators? On an Alpine, the turn signal indicators and wiper motor only work when the ignition switch is "run". Is a Rapier normally wired the same? So I'm wondering how the turn signal indicators and wiper motor were working prior to installing the ignition switch.

Mike

 

[Chrisp Rapier]

Are flashers the turn signal indicators? On an Alpine, the turn signal indicators and wiper motor only work when the ignition switch is "run". Is a Rapier normally wired the same? So I'm wondering how the turn signal indicators and wiper motor were working prior to installing the ignition switch.

Mike

I'm sorry. I did not explain very well what the ignition switch situation was. I have had the ignition switch wired the whole time. It's just that it was wired but hanging down and not positioned in the dashboard. I was busing figuring out what wires went where and testing all the components, so I did not want to mount switches and gauges till I felt all was correctly wired. When I was satisfied with the functionality of all, I then started mounting everything properly. Several times I put things in place and once mounted I then lost various electrical functions. Mostly it was the flasher and corresponding indicator lights. They would illuminate and not flash. The wiper also did not work. The first attempt at mounting all components I blew a fuse. The second time I did not blow a fuse, but I still lost electrification to the flasher and wiper function. Not sure what happened then. I went through all connections. I had some connections that were maybe not fully engaged. I cleaned connections and grounds. Everything was working again but upon mounting dash stuff I blew another fuse. I realized I had the ignition switch powered on when mounting stuff and I am sure I grounded negative wires in the process. I then decided to electrical tape exposed connection points on components. I now have it buttoned up and things look good. fingers crossed.

 

[Chrisp Rapier]

What is the EL in my gear shift pattern. Vehicle is not drivable yet, so I am a little confused.

 

[husky drvr]

What is the EL in my gear shift pattern. Vehicle is not drivable yet, so I am a little confused.

Chrisp R,

The "EL" stands for "Emergency Low." Think of its recommended use being the same as a truck's "granny" low gear. The gear ratio difference is not as severe as a truck transmission, though. Here are some scans from a Minx owners handbook.

Hope this helps,

 

[Chrisp Rapier]

Chrisp R,

The "EL" stands for "Emergency Low." Think of its recommended use being the same as a truck's "granny" low gear. The gear ratio difference is not as severe as a truck transmission, though. Here are some scans from a Minx owners handbook.

Hope this helps,


View attachment 27447 View attachment 27448

That is very interesting. This explains why I see it called a three speed. It is like an optional first gear for certain conditions, I gather. So, like maybe uphill starts?

 

[husky drvr]

That is very interesting. This explains why I see it called a three speed. It is like an optional first gear for certain conditions, I gather. So, like maybe uphill starts?

You've got it, just like it says under Use of Gears.

The UK was still very conscious of trying to be economical as possible to recover from wartime expenditures. The rationing which began at the start of WWII continued, in part, until the mid Fifties. Long after the US resumed normal economies.

A quote found in the www.

On July 4, 1954, while Americans celebrated their independence by gorging on hot dogs, the British celebrated being allowed to gorge on hot dogs. That day the U.K. officially ended 14 years of food rationing imposed at the dawn of World War II.

Just a thought,

 

[Chrisp Rapier]

You've got it, just like it says under Use of Gears.

The UK was still very conscious of trying to be economical as possible to recover from wartime expenditures. The rationing which began at the start of WWII continued, in part, until the mid Fifties. Long after the US resumed normal economies.

A quote found in the www.

On July 4, 1954, while Americans celebrated their independence by gorging on hot dogs, the British celebrated being allowed to gorge on hot dogs. That day the U.K. officially ended 14 years of food rationing imposed at the dawn of World War II.

Just a thought,

Opppps! did not see that part of your first post. Thank you for that lucid explanation. Just goes to show. One can learn a new thing every day!

 

[greenbeam]

So I am looking at a Series 2 Rapier with a very weird shift pattern:
First (maybe EL) is up at the RIGHT and is non-synchro.
Second is down and to the RIGHT
Third is up and to the LEFT
Fourth down and to the LEFT
Reverse is far left and down.

Any idea what is going on? I've never seen a shift pattern like that.
Cheers,
Paul.

 

[husky drvr]

Any idea what is going on? I've never seen a shift pattern like that.

Paul,

I've only experienced the standard US "Three on the Tree" H pattern for a column shift mechanism. I never knew a four speed column shifter had been devised until I learned of the Rootes design. Four speed column shifters might be more common on other, older European autos. I'm guessing the Rootes basic design might have been in use for a long while before being integrated into the Audax range of autos.

Some observations about the Rootes design:

If that was the design you learned to drive a column shifter with, that pattern would seem normal.

Ergonomically, the most common shifting - between 3rd and 4th - would not be a long stretch to reach.

Safety might be better because as the vehicle goes faster, the driver's shift hand remains closer to the steering wheel.


Just some rambling thoughts,

 

[greenbeam]

Ah, sorry, this is a Series II with a floor shift.

Thanks for the history, I didn't know about that legislation.
Cheers,
Paul.