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1600 oil pump questions

A

Armand4

Donation Time
Hey everyone,

I've been having a problem with an intermittent loss of oil pressure. I haven't scattered the bottom end of the engine all over the driveway (yet...) but it makes the bearings make expensive-sounding noises. This only happens when the engine is cold, but it doesn't happen when I'm just starting the car-- when the problem starts (it doesn't happen every time I drive the car) it's usually after about a quarter- to half-mile of driving. The confusing thing is that the problem soon goes away, and then I have normal oil pressure and the engine runs like a top. Am I right in suspecting that the oil pump is the culprit? How do I fix this--can I rebuild the oil pump that's in the car now, or do I need to buy a new one? I've also heard about people installing 1725 oil pumps in their 1600 motors for increased oil flow and pressure (and because I can't seem to find 1600 oil pumps anywhere). Is this the sort of thing that requires a complete teardown and a lot of machine work? I'm wary of opening that particular can of worms, but at the same time I don't want to ruin my bearings.

Thanks in advance,

Armand
 
R

RootesRacer

Donation Time
Armand4 said:
Hey everyone,

I've been having a problem with an intermittent loss of oil pressure. I haven't scattered the bottom end of the engine all over the driveway (yet...) but it makes the bearings make expensive-sounding noises. This only happens when the engine is cold, but it doesn't happen when I'm just starting the car-- when the problem starts (it doesn't happen every time I drive the car) it's usually after about a quarter- to half-mile of driving. The confusing thing is that the problem soon goes away, and then I have normal oil pressure and the engine runs like a top. Am I right in suspecting that the oil pump is the culprit? How do I fix this--can I rebuild the oil pump that's in the car now, or do I need to buy a new one? I've also heard about people installing 1725 oil pumps in their 1600 motors for increased oil flow and pressure (and because I can't seem to find 1600 oil pumps anywhere). Is this the sort of thing that requires a complete teardown and a lot of machine work? I'm wary of opening that particular can of worms, but at the same time I don't want to ruin my bearings.

Thanks in advance,

Armand
Click to expand...

Your pressure relief valve surely is the culprit.

A worn oil pump will cause consistantly low oil pressure, not intermittent.

I usually dont like to screw with the valves once they have stuck open on me, but some have taken them apart, cleaned and deburred the inside making them serviceable again. Me, I'd look for a nice NOS valve and use it.
 
jumpinjan

jumpinjan

Bronze Level Sponsor
Armand4 said:
...people installing 1725 oil pumps in their 1600 motors for increased oil flow and pressure (and because I can't seem to find 1600 oil pumps anywhere). Is this the sort of thing that requires a complete teardown and a lot of machine work? I'm wary of opening that particular can of worms, but at the same time I don't want to ruin my bearings.
Click to expand...
I'll comment on this topic. I have modified my Lemans 1600 and Ian's 1600 engines to accept the 1725 oil pump. I have to warn you that it requires a critical machining set-up to drill a larger machine screw hole in the block. The only way to to this precisely, is on a Bridgeport mill (which I used). The drilling & tapping takes about 20 mins, but the set-up & mounting plate fabrication (that I had to make) took about 16 hours.
Yes, now I can just order a new 1725 pump (readily available) when the old one wears out. It will flow more (if needed), but the pressure is regulated by the pressure relief valve (as mentioned above).
(the 1600 oil pan need modification too. Its sheetmetal work & MIG & spot welding)
 
A

Armand4

Donation Time
I guess I'll try and fix the pressure relief valve before I do anything else. Do I need to drain the sump to do this? Is NOS the only way to go, or does anyone sell the valves? Do I need any special gaskets when I replace the valve?
 
R

RootesRacer

Donation Time
Armand4 said:
I guess I'll try and fix the pressure relief valve before I do anything else. Do I need to drain the sump to do this? Is NOS the only way to go, or does anyone sell the valves? Do I need any special gaskets when I replace the valve?
Click to expand...

The valves have been out of stock for some time, even then, there are 3 different types it could be...

Sunbeam Specialties or Classic Sunbeam USED to sell whole SV oil filter assemblies, which had the latest pressure relief valve installed in it, it was worth buying one if not just for the valve. Alas, those are gone now too.

First thing to do is to remove the relief valve (no you dont have to drain the sump), its on the side of the oil filter block.

After you figure out which one you have, only then can you ask around for someone that has a new or good condition piece.

I mentioned NOS because now and then, one turns up one EBAY, seller fastcars (Jim D.) is likley your best bet, and you might ask him direct.


Anyhow, dont tear into your motor, you are going to find that the relief valve IS the problem, and will be surprised how easy it is to actually fix this problem (ignoring finding a replacement).


Just about anyone Ive known that has driven any number of miles on an old rootes engine will tell you of the dreaded stuck relief valve.

Best of luck.
 
RootesRooter

RootesRooter

Donation Time
If you pick up a new pressure relief valve on eBay from "fastcars," be aware you'll also need to find a later filter base from the Arrow Range (1969 Arrows, Alpine Coupes and GT fastbacks in the US), as the valve design is entirely different from that used on the Series cars. Those filter bases are relatively easy to find.
 
SIVAllan

SIVAllan

Gold Level Sponsor
Armand4 said:
I guess I'll try and fix the pressure relief valve before I do anything else. Do I need to drain the sump to do this? Is NOS the only way to go, or does anyone sell the valves? Do I need any special gaskets when I replace the valve?
Click to expand...

If you replace (or remove for cleaning) the assembly, you will need gaskets for reinstallation.

Sunbeam Specialties and Classic Sunbeam lists them (oil filter base gaskets).

Although not as good the NOS option, you might see if anyone has for sale a base unit with valve in good working condition (post in Parts Wanted).

Allan
 
A

Armand4

Donation Time
Well, I've looked at a few things, and I think the filter base for my Alpine must be for a Series V because it has a modern spin-on disposable filter and lines for an oil cooler. I've taken the pressure relief valve off, and although it seems to be in good condition I'm going to try cleaning it up and reinstalling it to see if that's what was causing the problem. I'll let you know what happens.
 
SIVAllan

SIVAllan

Gold Level Sponsor
Armand4 said:
Well, I've looked at a few things, and I think the filter base for my Alpine must be for a Series V because it has a modern spin-on disposable filter and lines for an oil cooler. I've taken the pressure relief valve off, and although it seems to be in good condition I'm going to try cleaning it up and reinstalling it to see if that's what was causing the problem. I'll let you know what happens.
Click to expand...

A prescription for cleaning the OPR from Nick:

Allan: had the same problem on my SV a few years ago. Examination of the PRV showed a deposit buildup on the inside of the valve which was causing the piston to stick.

You can't remove this with paraffin/kerosene. This is a lighter hydrocarbon similar to the oil the deposit came from. You need a much more aggressive solvent. This is the procedure I used successfully:

1) Empty any paraffin out, then soak the valve in lacquer thinner overnight.
2) Exercize the piston (I used a rod chucked into my drill press) a dozen times with the valve submerged in thinner.
3) Empty valve and repeat 2 half a dozen times.
4) Empty and then submerge valve in engine oil. Exercize piston.
5) Repeat 4.

However, if there is a serious step worn into the cylinder, it might hang up again.
__________________
Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face. Muhammad Ali.

There's a thread on this, search on Oil Pressure Relief Valve, page down to near the end...

Allan
 
Alpineracer8

Alpineracer8

Donation Time
Armand:

I had an intermittent to low oil pressure problem on my race car right after we built the engine. It turned out to be that goofy OPR valve. Mine was the "brass on brass" unit; i.e. brass piston inside a brass sleeve. This was a terrible design as brass is a soft metal. Putting a "soft" brass piston in a "soft" brass sleeve is nothing but a stuck piston waiting to happen.

I had a guy here in OKC remove the sleeve and piston and change it over to a steel piston in a brass sleeve. So, now I have a hard metal piston that won't try to hang up like the soft brass piston did. I've had no problems since then.

Best of luck,
 
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