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v6 conversion?
- Thread starter bbonner
- Start date
MikeH
Diamond Level Sponsor
Also if you find a '79 Mustang (first of the Fox body 'stangs) with the 2.8, it will already have the rear sump oil pan. I didn't know that when I picked up the '79 that I pulled my engine from. Nice suprise. 
Not all of the 6 cylinder '79's are 2.8's. They started with the 2.8 V6 then the supply of V6's fell short and they started using 3.3L straight 6's.
Not all of the 6 cylinder '79's are 2.8's. They started with the 2.8 V6 then the supply of V6's fell short and they started using 3.3L straight 6's.
I don't get it. Why go to all the trouble of an engine swap and put in a 30 year old engine. I know that fit is an issue and having a kit available is nice too, but I just put a GM 3.4 in mine, and fabricating motor mount brackets was probably the easiest part of the process.
And I have to say, it seems like getting the kit is a challenge too.
Gentlemen & ladies, I think that other options are worth considering.
And I have to say, it seems like getting the kit is a challenge too.
Gentlemen & ladies, I think that other options are worth considering.
Hi Bev,
I fabricated only the motor mount brackets, because I used the original Alpine motor mounts. The Alpine motor mounts are 60 degrees to each other and because the 3.4 is a 60 degree V6, the Alpine motor mount brackets are on the same line as the engine wall. I simply took a heavy metal plate, and welded a 2"L on the end. I also fabricated the transmission mount a la Tiger. A tube support between the frame members.
I also changed the steering to rack and pinion as you can see in the photo. Basically, I followed an article in the Tiger's United tech tips.
The hardest part by far was the exhaust.
Then there were 100 more mini tasks from widening the transmission tunnel, to changing the gas pedal and linkage.
If any one thinks that all they need is a kit, then swap the engine, they're kidding themselves. There are a lot of parts on a car.
Even with my MGA, where nothing was converted. After I got the engine rebuilt and installed it easily took another 200 hours for all the miscellaneous stuff.
As for the rear end, I think it's pretty solid. I have the hardened keys to be installed, but I don't intend to go dragging with it.
But the good news is that it's a beauty to drive. It is definitly worth the effort.
by the way, you're not far from Stowe. I'm going to try and bring it there on the 20th. Then you can see the result first hand.
Mike
I fabricated only the motor mount brackets, because I used the original Alpine motor mounts. The Alpine motor mounts are 60 degrees to each other and because the 3.4 is a 60 degree V6, the Alpine motor mount brackets are on the same line as the engine wall. I simply took a heavy metal plate, and welded a 2"L on the end. I also fabricated the transmission mount a la Tiger. A tube support between the frame members.
I also changed the steering to rack and pinion as you can see in the photo. Basically, I followed an article in the Tiger's United tech tips.
The hardest part by far was the exhaust.
Then there were 100 more mini tasks from widening the transmission tunnel, to changing the gas pedal and linkage.
If any one thinks that all they need is a kit, then swap the engine, they're kidding themselves. There are a lot of parts on a car.
Even with my MGA, where nothing was converted. After I got the engine rebuilt and installed it easily took another 200 hours for all the miscellaneous stuff.
As for the rear end, I think it's pretty solid. I have the hardened keys to be installed, but I don't intend to go dragging with it.
But the good news is that it's a beauty to drive. It is definitly worth the effort.
by the way, you're not far from Stowe. I'm going to try and bring it there on the 20th. Then you can see the result first hand.
Mike
Attachments
Ken Ellis
Donation Time
I've read of lots of swaps... Mike's looks clean and roomy, Jose's kit addresses the needs of some folks, and other people have swapped in drivetrains from an RX7, a Nissan (recent thread), Pinto (2L), Ford V8 (of course), Chevy V8 (father and son project I saw at the Indiana Invasion) and even electric. Apparently the recent Nissan is a really good fit, a Miata transplant is underway (I believe) by someone on the forum, and I spoke with someone considering a Honda S2000 swap, too. Ztech and duratech and Quad4 have been mentioned also, if not already accomplished.
All of them will require grafting engine wiring harnesses with the existing system, all require exhaust work to varying degrees, and many require bodywork adjustment underhood or in the trans tunnel. The key issue there is retaining the tubular braces (see Mike's photo above), preserving the structural integrity of the x-frame, and having enough room up front for the radiator. This past Invasion had (at least) two cars that reaped the benefits of pushing the radiator (non-stock) well forward of its original position. This allowed generous room ahead of the engine -- even more than a standard Alpine. (One of those was built using Jose's kit, I believe.)
Horsepower usually governs the rear end choices. A Miata or Mazda swap would likely remain compatible with the Alpine rear end. V8s, not so much. Of course, if you never punch it, the standard rear end is fine with a V8... but really, how are you not going to punch it?
Stock steering setup relies on some room behind the engine, so the choices there include Jose's kit, or the rack and pinion shown in Mike's photo.
Search this site, (and others) for info on what works, and what doesn't, when it comes to Alpine engine mods. And also consider what a car would be like if you put the same amount of money into the original drive train. While it won't spin the tires in all 4 gears, there are quite a few mods out there to improve the performance of the standard engine.
On my car, the philosophy is: changing things is fine, but it should be able to be returned to original by the next owner, if desired.
In my book, it's all good, if the car does what you want it to do. After all, it's your car!
Ken
All of them will require grafting engine wiring harnesses with the existing system, all require exhaust work to varying degrees, and many require bodywork adjustment underhood or in the trans tunnel. The key issue there is retaining the tubular braces (see Mike's photo above), preserving the structural integrity of the x-frame, and having enough room up front for the radiator. This past Invasion had (at least) two cars that reaped the benefits of pushing the radiator (non-stock) well forward of its original position. This allowed generous room ahead of the engine -- even more than a standard Alpine. (One of those was built using Jose's kit, I believe.)
Horsepower usually governs the rear end choices. A Miata or Mazda swap would likely remain compatible with the Alpine rear end. V8s, not so much. Of course, if you never punch it, the standard rear end is fine with a V8... but really, how are you not going to punch it?
Stock steering setup relies on some room behind the engine, so the choices there include Jose's kit, or the rack and pinion shown in Mike's photo.
Search this site, (and others) for info on what works, and what doesn't, when it comes to Alpine engine mods. And also consider what a car would be like if you put the same amount of money into the original drive train. While it won't spin the tires in all 4 gears, there are quite a few mods out there to improve the performance of the standard engine.
On my car, the philosophy is: changing things is fine, but it should be able to be returned to original by the next owner, if desired.
In my book, it's all good, if the car does what you want it to do. After all, it's your car!
Ken
Hi Mike,
There are other reasons to go with the 2.8 Ford. The first, is that you don't have to change the steering at all. The Ford 2.8 V6 will fit without losing the fine Alpine handling. Using the Tiger set up, loses that great handling. The 2.8 Ford is a bit old, but it will out last many of the later engine designs, plus will out perform many as well. If someone isn't fond of Ford products, he can use whatever he chooses, but I doubt that their choice will out perform a well sorted Ford. 2.8 V6.
Installing the engine and transmission into the Alpine with my kit, can be done in 20 hours or less, if you know how to weld. Jim Ellis has done the complete conversion inside 30 days. The kit also saves money, because unless you can fabricate your own headers, you will pay more than half of the cost of the kit, just to have someone make them for you. I am talking about a proper set of equal length tubular headers, not some three pipe into one down pipe. I have seen the headers that are being sold to the guys that are doing the 3.4 GM into the MGB, and they are junk. They rob horse power. I know that some will say that they don't mind, because they aren't going to race their Alpine anyway, but more power is one of the basic reasons we do a conversion. They look bad and perform worse. they will lose gas mileage too, because the engine can't breathe properly. I would like to see what you have for an exhaust system and compare it to the kit.
One of the benefits of using one of my lkits, is that the finished project looks professionally done; as if it came from the factory like that. I don't criticize anyone that wants to build his own parts, or wants to use a different engine either, but for those who can't, or don't want to build them, I can provide them a hand, so they too can have a V6 Alpine, and enjoy a very special vehicle and experience.
Jose
There are other reasons to go with the 2.8 Ford. The first, is that you don't have to change the steering at all. The Ford 2.8 V6 will fit without losing the fine Alpine handling. Using the Tiger set up, loses that great handling. The 2.8 Ford is a bit old, but it will out last many of the later engine designs, plus will out perform many as well. If someone isn't fond of Ford products, he can use whatever he chooses, but I doubt that their choice will out perform a well sorted Ford. 2.8 V6.
Installing the engine and transmission into the Alpine with my kit, can be done in 20 hours or less, if you know how to weld. Jim Ellis has done the complete conversion inside 30 days. The kit also saves money, because unless you can fabricate your own headers, you will pay more than half of the cost of the kit, just to have someone make them for you. I am talking about a proper set of equal length tubular headers, not some three pipe into one down pipe. I have seen the headers that are being sold to the guys that are doing the 3.4 GM into the MGB, and they are junk. They rob horse power. I know that some will say that they don't mind, because they aren't going to race their Alpine anyway, but more power is one of the basic reasons we do a conversion. They look bad and perform worse. they will lose gas mileage too, because the engine can't breathe properly. I would like to see what you have for an exhaust system and compare it to the kit.
One of the benefits of using one of my lkits, is that the finished project looks professionally done; as if it came from the factory like that. I don't criticize anyone that wants to build his own parts, or wants to use a different engine either, but for those who can't, or don't want to build them, I can provide them a hand, so they too can have a V6 Alpine, and enjoy a very special vehicle and experience.
Jose
Ken
My thought is leave it as is as long as possible. Like mine. If the engine died and I wanted something to drive at anytime long distances, then I would consider putting in a newer 4 like a escort or miata or whatever we decide at the time. My Son on the other hand wants something that is different and unique to the area. Which sunbeams are around here in NE. As my son and husband our GM guys that is why Mike's article interested them. It will be their car their decision not mine. I like mine as she is. She is free of rattles, seems to be tough. I want to know what other 44 year old cars with original engine would make a 2100 mile trip with out a skip. For those like my son...good for them. I just am trying to find out information for when they start they will have some good information of do's and don'ts I appreciate everyone's input and know it will be helpful when they start their project. You have to realize they don't do anything overnight this thing will take them years as that is the way they are. Thanks again. Bev
My thought is leave it as is as long as possible. Like mine. If the engine died and I wanted something to drive at anytime long distances, then I would consider putting in a newer 4 like a escort or miata or whatever we decide at the time. My Son on the other hand wants something that is different and unique to the area. Which sunbeams are around here in NE. As my son and husband our GM guys that is why Mike's article interested them. It will be their car their decision not mine. I like mine as she is. She is free of rattles, seems to be tough. I want to know what other 44 year old cars with original engine would make a 2100 mile trip with out a skip. For those like my son...good for them. I just am trying to find out information for when they start they will have some good information of do's and don'ts I appreciate everyone's input and know it will be helpful when they start their project. You have to realize they don't do anything overnight this thing will take them years as that is the way they are. Thanks again. Bev
Jose
I like the idea of not having them to do anything with the steering as I like the way alpines handle and the steering being changed does not appeal to me but again it is their decision. I do think your kit seems to be worth it if they go with the ford 2.8. Personally that is what I would do but what do I know. Bev
I like the idea of not having them to do anything with the steering as I like the way alpines handle and the steering being changed does not appeal to me but again it is their decision. I do think your kit seems to be worth it if they go with the ford 2.8. Personally that is what I would do but what do I know. Bev
The truth be know, today there are several 4 cylinder engines that out perform both V6 engines. The 4AGE for example. Some put out over 200hp.
there is a LoCost USA forum that covers this topic in great detail. They also describe how to fabricate engine mounts, etc.
I was bias towards a V6, because I wanted a car where, if there were no marking, a person would think it's a Tiger. And I love the sound my car gives. I am re-living my youth in a way.
But if I was completely open minded, I would go with a modern 4 cylinder.
there is a LoCost USA forum that covers this topic in great detail. They also describe how to fabricate engine mounts, etc.
I was bias towards a V6, because I wanted a car where, if there were no marking, a person would think it's a Tiger. And I love the sound my car gives. I am re-living my youth in a way.
But if I was completely open minded, I would go with a modern 4 cylinder.
Bev,
I went the Ford 2.8 V6 route and I can say I am very happy with the outcome. I am rather old school and I have no use for all the bells and whistles on most modern cars.
For the V6 I bought a Mustang II that gave me just about all the parts needed, just a couple of parts were needed from a Ranger or Bronco II and those were very easy to come by. There are actually a lot of new parts for this engine available at your local parts store. In my area we have Schuck’s auto and there was not a single thing they couldn’t get for me for this engine.
I stripped everything not needed from the engine and now I have a very basic setup with no fancy computer parts to cause problems out in the middle of a trip. Any garage or back yard mechanic can work on this engine so there is no concern of finding someone who “specializes†in a fancy setup.
I put in a automatic transmission, I know most people would not do this but I had to, and I can tell you it has more power then I will ever need. In fact I have run into an added expense as I need wider tires as the engine/transmission/stock rear end combo spin the skinny stock tires way too much! But that is not necessarily a bad thing I did not go the extra mile and make this a 200HP engine, but it has more then enough power just the way it is.
Jose’s kit made the installation really simple, There is really not much work getting the V6 in the alpine and most of the time spent is just the regular basic engine hookup that would occur in removing and replacing an engine anyway. I did use an Alpine that had an automatic transmission so I did not have to widen the transmission tunnel, but from what I have seen that process is not very hard or complicated. There is a little fabrication in changing the motor mounts and transmission tunnel, but most everything else is made up in the kit and just bolts on. This is a picture of the all the parts in the kit from Jose:
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2561323570100792580jJZtym
As you can see just about all bolts on.
While the idea of a “newer†engine may be tempting, the little V6 is a very strong engine, parts are readily available, and anyone anywhere can work on this engine. My engine rebuilder said, in his opinion, there was not too much you can do wrong with this engine and even though he works on a lot of V8’s he really likes this little V6. In my book there are just too many good things about this swap to not go this route.
And just so you know I am not some power hungry hot rodder kid, I also have a stock series II that will stay stock as long as I have the car and I hope that will be the rest of my life. One of each is a great situation, you can cruse down the boulevard in style in the stock car or run with the fast pack in the V6. Either way any Alpine beats all other cars on the road as far as I am concerned.
Sharong
I went the Ford 2.8 V6 route and I can say I am very happy with the outcome. I am rather old school and I have no use for all the bells and whistles on most modern cars.
For the V6 I bought a Mustang II that gave me just about all the parts needed, just a couple of parts were needed from a Ranger or Bronco II and those were very easy to come by. There are actually a lot of new parts for this engine available at your local parts store. In my area we have Schuck’s auto and there was not a single thing they couldn’t get for me for this engine.
I stripped everything not needed from the engine and now I have a very basic setup with no fancy computer parts to cause problems out in the middle of a trip. Any garage or back yard mechanic can work on this engine so there is no concern of finding someone who “specializes†in a fancy setup.
I put in a automatic transmission, I know most people would not do this but I had to, and I can tell you it has more power then I will ever need. In fact I have run into an added expense as I need wider tires as the engine/transmission/stock rear end combo spin the skinny stock tires way too much! But that is not necessarily a bad thing
I did not go the extra mile and make this a 200HP engine, but it has more then enough power just the way it is.Jose’s kit made the installation really simple, There is really not much work getting the V6 in the alpine and most of the time spent is just the regular basic engine hookup that would occur in removing and replacing an engine anyway. I did use an Alpine that had an automatic transmission so I did not have to widen the transmission tunnel, but from what I have seen that process is not very hard or complicated. There is a little fabrication in changing the motor mounts and transmission tunnel, but most everything else is made up in the kit and just bolts on. This is a picture of the all the parts in the kit from Jose:
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2561323570100792580jJZtym
As you can see just about all bolts on.
While the idea of a “newer†engine may be tempting, the little V6 is a very strong engine, parts are readily available, and anyone anywhere can work on this engine. My engine rebuilder said, in his opinion, there was not too much you can do wrong with this engine and even though he works on a lot of V8’s he really likes this little V6. In my book there are just too many good things about this swap to not go this route.
And just so you know I am not some power hungry hot rodder kid, I also have a stock series II that will stay stock as long as I have the car and I hope that will be the rest of my life. One of each is a great situation, you can cruse down the boulevard in style in the stock car or run with the fast pack in the V6. Either way any Alpine beats all other cars on the road as far as I am concerned.
Sharong
MikeT
I would imagine because they are newer and probable less mechanical issues down the road. You probably would not have to adapt so many parts as well. Bill Blue has a 4 out of a Pinto but a newer one would be okay as well. I do see where you are going. In fact if my original died and I did not want to have it rebuilt that is the way I personally would go. Thanks for your input. Beverly
I would imagine because they are newer and probable less mechanical issues down the road. You probably would not have to adapt so many parts as well. Bill Blue has a 4 out of a Pinto but a newer one would be okay as well. I do see where you are going. In fact if my original died and I did not want to have it rebuilt that is the way I personally would go. Thanks for your input. Beverly
MikeH
Diamond Level Sponsor
Sharong,
Looks like you are showing more parts than comes with the kit. The thermostat housing is not included and I don't know what the stuff on the left side of the pic or on top of the manifold gaskets are. One thing you don't show is the slave cylinder bracket that is included.
Mike
Looks like you are showing more parts than comes with the kit. The thermostat housing is not included and I don't know what the stuff on the left side of the pic or on top of the manifold gaskets are. One thing you don't show is the slave cylinder bracket that is included.
Mike
MikeH
Diamond Level Sponsor
Bev,
I noticed that Sharong stayed stock with the 2.8.
"I did not go the extra mile and make this a 200HP engine"
But I am finding out there are mods that can be made and I am attempting some of them. I have the Offy 4V intake and plan to use the 390 cfm Holley. I had the heads modified by Jim Ellis. The mods included porting/polishing, larger 2.9 intake and exhaust valves, extra coolant holes, and new guides, seals, and springs. I have had a 2.9 crankshaft modified to accept the 2.8 timing gears. I plan to go .030 over on the cylinder bore. If I calculated everything correctly, this puts me a 2.982 liters and about 9.3:1 compression ratio. I also plan to have the cam reground to Jose's specs and have the rockers rebuilt and lifters resurfaced. I also have a high volume oil pump, new timing gears, and new water pump. I'm planning to use the pistons from a '74 2.8 as from what I've found, it has a higher pin placement that should give me the piston deck clearance I would need and keep the compression down. I forgot to mention that I'm also using the Volvo fan with the adaptor from dmich2. I've never done anything like this before, so I'm learning as I go. I just hope it goes together as planned. According to what Sharong said.
"I have run into an added expense as I need wider tires as the engine/transmission/stock rear end combo spin the skinny stock tires way too much!"
I guess I might need to increase my tire budget.
Mike
I noticed that Sharong stayed stock with the 2.8.
"I did not go the extra mile and make this a 200HP engine"
But I am finding out there are mods that can be made and I am attempting some of them. I have the Offy 4V intake and plan to use the 390 cfm Holley. I had the heads modified by Jim Ellis. The mods included porting/polishing, larger 2.9 intake and exhaust valves, extra coolant holes, and new guides, seals, and springs. I have had a 2.9 crankshaft modified to accept the 2.8 timing gears. I plan to go .030 over on the cylinder bore. If I calculated everything correctly, this puts me a 2.982 liters and about 9.3:1 compression ratio. I also plan to have the cam reground to Jose's specs and have the rockers rebuilt and lifters resurfaced. I also have a high volume oil pump, new timing gears, and new water pump. I'm planning to use the pistons from a '74 2.8 as from what I've found, it has a higher pin placement that should give me the piston deck clearance I would need and keep the compression down. I forgot to mention that I'm also using the Volvo fan with the adaptor from dmich2. I've never done anything like this before, so I'm learning as I go. I just hope it goes together as planned. According to what Sharong said.
"I have run into an added expense as I need wider tires as the engine/transmission/stock rear end combo spin the skinny stock tires way too much!"
I guess I might need to increase my tire budget.
Mike
Bev,
You mentioned the rear end earlier. Have a look at this link an you'll see this fellow has an engine much stronger than the 2.8 with the stock Alpine rear end.
http://www.britishv8.org/Other/DavidPark.htm
By the way, does anyone know how strong the 2.8 is?
He used the Mustank II steering, which I would like to know more about. (I was going to correct the spelling, but decided it was it suite the car)
But anyway, there are some good references on this site.
Mike
You mentioned the rear end earlier. Have a look at this link an you'll see this fellow has an engine much stronger than the 2.8 with the stock Alpine rear end.
http://www.britishv8.org/Other/DavidPark.htm
By the way, does anyone know how strong the 2.8 is?
He used the Mustank II steering, which I would like to know more about. (I was going to correct the spelling, but decided it was it suite the car)
But anyway, there are some good references on this site.
Mike