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unleaded gas
- Thread starter bbonner
- Start date
MikeH
Diamond Level Sponsor
Many products are labelled for "OFF ROAD USE ONLY", From exhaust and suspension components to lighting. Some because they don't comply with federal standards and others to release the seller and manufacturer from liability. My guess for additives being labelled that way is that they would affect emissions.
Nickodell
Donation Time
As T.L. Alfreno posted, I have been using AVGAS - aviation gasoline as used in piston-engined planes - for the past 20 years. It used to be 115 octane leaded, but is now 100-105 octane low lead, but this is enough to allow the use all the spark advance the designers intended, plus a higher-than-original compression ratio, with no detonation (knocking) under any circumstances, plus enough lead for valve seat lubrication.
Some states allow its use in road vehicles with various restrictions in each state, e.g. "Limited Use Antiques and Classics," "built before 1969," "engine designed for leaded fuel," etc. You might go ahead and use it even if not permitted in your state, but as Richard Nixon said (for the benefit of the microphone): "We could do that. But it would be wrong."
If you go the AVGAS route, you need to get some all-metal fuel cans as the line man (refueller) at the airport will need to bond the cans to the tanker truck, the same way he bonds aircraft he is refuelling, with a cable and alligator clip, to prevent static causing an explosion.
By the way, expect to pay over $5.50 a gallon.
Some states allow its use in road vehicles with various restrictions in each state, e.g. "Limited Use Antiques and Classics," "built before 1969," "engine designed for leaded fuel," etc. You might go ahead and use it even if not permitted in your state, but as Richard Nixon said (for the benefit of the microphone): "We could do that. But it would be wrong."
If you go the AVGAS route, you need to get some all-metal fuel cans as the line man (refueller) at the airport will need to bond the cans to the tanker truck, the same way he bonds aircraft he is refuelling, with a cable and alligator clip, to prevent static causing an explosion.
By the way, expect to pay over $5.50 a gallon.
puff4
Platinum Level Sponsor
Just a few thoughts...
Using leaded fuel in any on-road vehicle is illegal under provisions of the Federal Clean Air Act and it's amendments, so to do so risks severe penalties under Federal law.
Further, in order to qualify for Federal highway funds, states had to comply with clean air standards, and as such, they were induced to create and enforce similar laws within their own states, so it is very likely that one may also be breaking state laws. I don't know of any states that allow provisional use in road-use vehicles, but I'd happily accept being proved wrong.
And on another tack, road-use fuel is taxed by the state and federal government. Using non-taxed fuel, or fuel not taxed for road use, is a form of tax evasion and may be prosecuted as such.
Finally, it's just unhealthy. The lead in American children's blood has been dramatically reduced since the enactment of the Clean Air Act, and is now in the small single digits.
If any of you have kids with ADD, ADHD or other learning disabilities, whether it was caused by lead exposure or not, you have seen what lead can do to a kid - the symptoms are profoundly similar (reference 1, 2, & 3). Interestingly, many experts attribute reductions in crime rates directly to the reduction of lead in gasoline (4). Further, lead is also closely associated with high blood pressure and infertility in adult males, too. (5, 6)
Your mileage may, indeed, vary greatly on this one, and everyone has to make their own choices in life, but I personally would never use leaded fuel in a road car. Pull the head, stuff in some hardened seats and drive worry-free. ...And hug your kids and/or grandkids.
Using leaded fuel in any on-road vehicle is illegal under provisions of the Federal Clean Air Act and it's amendments, so to do so risks severe penalties under Federal law.
Further, in order to qualify for Federal highway funds, states had to comply with clean air standards, and as such, they were induced to create and enforce similar laws within their own states, so it is very likely that one may also be breaking state laws. I don't know of any states that allow provisional use in road-use vehicles, but I'd happily accept being proved wrong.
And on another tack, road-use fuel is taxed by the state and federal government. Using non-taxed fuel, or fuel not taxed for road use, is a form of tax evasion and may be prosecuted as such.
Finally, it's just unhealthy. The lead in American children's blood has been dramatically reduced since the enactment of the Clean Air Act, and is now in the small single digits.
If any of you have kids with ADD, ADHD or other learning disabilities, whether it was caused by lead exposure or not, you have seen what lead can do to a kid - the symptoms are profoundly similar (reference 1, 2, & 3). Interestingly, many experts attribute reductions in crime rates directly to the reduction of lead in gasoline (4). Further, lead is also closely associated with high blood pressure and infertility in adult males, too. (5, 6)
Your mileage may, indeed, vary greatly on this one, and everyone has to make their own choices in life, but I personally would never use leaded fuel in a road car. Pull the head, stuff in some hardened seats and drive worry-free. ...And hug your kids and/or grandkids.
mikephillips
Donation Time
Having nothing to do with lead in gas, California and several others are now going after a number of users of vegetable oil fuel, for failure to pay fuel taxes.
The purpose of all these taxes on fuel, is that the P.C. croud really want to get us out of our cars and onto public transportation. Big Brother knows what is best for us.
Jose
Jose
Nickodell
Donation Time
Kevin: While I appreciate your concern, the claimed deleterious effects of lead in the atmosphere - ADD etc. - don't square with the facts. The rate of psychological and neurological disorders in kids has risen while the percentage of lead in air has fallen by, perhaps, 95% due to the end of leaded automobile fuel almost 30 years ago. As your references note, the vast majority of lead ingestion in children is due to the inhalation of lead dust and eating chips from lead-based paint.
In any event, the amount of lead put into the atmosphere by a handful of vintage/classic cars, compared with tens of thousands of general aviation and commercial aircraft, is equivalent to p*ssing in the sea.
However, I intend to check with the current state regulation regarding the use of leaded fuel. When I first put restored Matilda on the road, 100 octane leaded gas was still available - Sunoco 260, Golden Exxon, Amoco 100 etc. When all leaded auto gas was removed soon after this, the state allowed continued use for a restricted group of vehicles, but that may have been rescinded since. If so, I will discontinue using it. Lots of Marvel Mystery Oil in the fuel instead.
One correction to my post: AVGAS is now closer to $9 a gallon.
In any event, the amount of lead put into the atmosphere by a handful of vintage/classic cars, compared with tens of thousands of general aviation and commercial aircraft, is equivalent to p*ssing in the sea.
However, I intend to check with the current state regulation regarding the use of leaded fuel. When I first put restored Matilda on the road, 100 octane leaded gas was still available - Sunoco 260, Golden Exxon, Amoco 100 etc. When all leaded auto gas was removed soon after this, the state allowed continued use for a restricted group of vehicles, but that may have been rescinded since. If so, I will discontinue using it. Lots of Marvel Mystery Oil in the fuel instead.
One correction to my post: AVGAS is now closer to $9 a gallon.
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What does this do ?
Tom j
PHP:
QUOTE=Nickodell;52160]. Lots of Marvel Mystery Oil in the fuel instead.What does this do ?
Tom j
puff4
Platinum Level Sponsor
I'm very sorry, Nick, I wasn't picking on you at all, and please don't take it as such. Having a child with severe ADD and learning disabilities as I do, I'm just very sensitive to anything that would potentially give this horrible curse to yet another child - even in small measure - and I suppose I tend to climb on the soapbox over it.
As to the rate of psychological and neurological disorders in kids, I do agree it has gone up significantly... but you must remember that this is the rate of *diagnosed* psychological and neurological disorders. When you and I were young not nearly as many of these symptoms were diagnosed, or indeed even had names. I myself had ADD - undiagnosed and untreated - and my schoolwork and life suffered as a result - and nobody counted me in any statistics. Today, however, I would have been properly diagnosed, given carefully controlled medication to mitigate the chemical imbalance, and presumably would have been counted in the disorders statistics. This 'counting' difference makes the recorded figures substantially misleading, as the growth in diagnoses and treatment has expanded exponentially in the past 40 years.
I also agree that one person putting lead in their car isn't going to make a hill-of-beans worth of difference. Indeed, if everyone on this board did it, it likely would not, either. But I suppose to me it's a personal responsibility thing - I'm either a part of the problem or a part of the solution, and I've got to go with the latter... for my son, if for no other reason.
As to the rate of psychological and neurological disorders in kids, I do agree it has gone up significantly... but you must remember that this is the rate of *diagnosed* psychological and neurological disorders. When you and I were young not nearly as many of these symptoms were diagnosed, or indeed even had names. I myself had ADD - undiagnosed and untreated - and my schoolwork and life suffered as a result - and nobody counted me in any statistics. Today, however, I would have been properly diagnosed, given carefully controlled medication to mitigate the chemical imbalance, and presumably would have been counted in the disorders statistics. This 'counting' difference makes the recorded figures substantially misleading, as the growth in diagnoses and treatment has expanded exponentially in the past 40 years.
I also agree that one person putting lead in their car isn't going to make a hill-of-beans worth of difference. Indeed, if everyone on this board did it, it likely would not, either. But I suppose to me it's a personal responsibility thing - I'm either a part of the problem or a part of the solution, and I've got to go with the latter... for my son, if for no other reason.
puff4
Platinum Level Sponsor
That's an upper-cylinder lubricant, Tom, and it is thought to provide some minimal protection to the valves... not as much as lead would do, of course, but at least it's something.
MMO is a really old-line product, and I suspect it's been around since the 1930's. In fact, it's the recommended product for lubricating my Morris Minor's vintage Judson Supercharger - they were shipped with a Marvel Mystery Oiler to lubricate the compressor. MMO also works very well for lubricating your air tools... a few drops in the air intake every day you use them will make the internal parts last a lot longer.
Click the tin for more info.
The purpose of all these taxes on fuel, is that the P.C. croud really want to get us out of our cars and onto public transportation. Big Brother knows what is best for us.
Jose
No, the states want taxes to build and maintain roads so you can drive the Alpine. Without fuel tax, there is no money to do that. Don't know about the rest of the states, but Indiana has a formula that passes fuel tax all the way down to the cities and counties for use in building and maintaining roads.
Big Brother is involved only to the extent needed to raise money to satisfy our desire for smooth pavement. If he doesn't, there will be an insurrection. The PC crowd wants the fuel tax collected not to drive us out of our cars, but to divert the money to subsidize public transportation.
Bill
RootesRacer
Donation Time
That's an upper-cylinder lubricant, Tom, and it is thought to provide some minimal protection to the valves... not as much as lead would do, of course, but at least it's something.
MMO is a really old-line product, and I suspect it's been around since the 1930's. In fact, it's the recommended product for lubricating my Morris Minor's vintage Judson Supercharger - they were shipped with a Marvel Mystery Oiler to lubricate the compressor. MMO also works very well for lubricating your air tools... a few drops in the air intake every day you use them will make the internal parts last a lot longer.
Great stuff, not so much for cars and engines, but its a great cutting lubricant for milling and lathe work.
Smells nice too.
By the way the stuff is so volatile, I cant imagine it lasting long in an engine before evaporating away or being consumed by the engine through PCV or valve guides.
MMO is a really old-line product, and I suspect it's been around since the 1930's. In fact, it's the recommended product for lubricating my Morris Minor's vintage Judson Supercharger - they were shipped with a Marvel Mystery Oiler to lubricate the compressor. MMO also works very well for lubricating your air tools... a few drops in the air intake every day you use them will make the internal parts last a lot longer.
Great stuff, not so much for cars and engines, but its a great cutting lubricant for milling and lathe work.
Smells nice too.
By the way the stuff is so volatile, I cant imagine it lasting long in an engine before evaporating away or being consumed by the engine through PCV or valve guides.
L
Lee DeRamus saoca0404
After realizing that lead substitute was only oil, I have used Marvel for years. I remember my father using it in the early 50's. I have several Harleys that I use it in. Many miles on them, and they have not been converted to unleaded gas. After leaded gas was banned, I was able to buy real lead substitute from a place in Chicago. That only lasted about a year, then the Feds shut him down.
It seems there are many using Marvel oil. A few using the lead additive and some have their engine adjusted to use unleaded gas. So it seems to be what your preference is. I get nervouse about taring down my engine as she runs fine so I guess perhaps what I should do is if she needs engine work change it to run on unleaded. Meanwhile I have to make a choice about running the substitute or Marvel. Also what do you mean about lead substitute is only oil. Mine does not say what the ingredients are I think that is unusual.
V_Mad
Donation Time
I am sorry to hear that, but it seems your grammar, spelling etc. has not suffered, as your post is a credit to you, and an example to many.
Everything I have read suggests that there is no problem with unleaded gas in these engines, especially engines with alloy heads and steel valve seats as long as you use high enough octane so that there is no pinging. EXCEPT in the case of "continuous heavy duty" operation. Sometimes that seems to imply continuous high speed operation. To be on the safe side I have used CD-2 "Super concentrated Lead substitute". And I saw no valve recession at all in 5000 miles of high speed driving. I drove 5000 miles in 2 weeks mostly at sustained highway speeds with the motor at 3300-3600 RPM for 8 hrs at a time.
I have only just now noticed the label says "Off Road Use Only" as Mike H noted. But right under that note it has pictures of RVs, cars, trucks, pickups, !!?? I assume this in NOT due to any legal or emmisions.
This MSDS sheet shows no lead and seems to indicate no envronmental issues:
http://www.turtlewax.com/res/msds/msds4297.pdf
or
http://www.turtlewax.com/res/msds/msds4295.pdf
Although the "We promise nothing" statement at the end of the 5 page document is a bit disconcerting
So I think I'll continue to use it and add it to 94 octane unleaded. Can't hurt, not very expensive, may have helped so far.
Bev, when I say you need to use high enough octane to prevent "pinging" do you understand? Do you know what a motor sounds like when it "pings"?
Tom
I have only just now noticed the label says "Off Road Use Only" as Mike H noted. But right under that note it has pictures of RVs, cars, trucks, pickups, !!?? I assume this in NOT due to any legal or emmisions.
This MSDS sheet shows no lead and seems to indicate no envronmental issues:
http://www.turtlewax.com/res/msds/msds4297.pdf
or
http://www.turtlewax.com/res/msds/msds4295.pdf
Although the "We promise nothing" statement at the end of the 5 page document is a bit disconcerting
So I think I'll continue to use it and add it to 94 octane unleaded. Can't hurt, not very expensive, may have helped so far.
Bev, when I say you need to use high enough octane to prevent "pinging" do you understand? Do you know what a motor sounds like when it "pings"?
Tom
puff4
Platinum Level Sponsor
Thanks... much appreciated. I have worked very, very hard to overcome this thing, but I still have many of the symptoms (like a million projects around the house, started but not finished... *sigh*). I took a lot of whippings from my dad when growing up - seems that I was never working up to my 'potential' (a common symptom of ADD). But I don't blame him - he had no idea that there was something chemically out of balance, and only saw my behavior and tried to correct it. I'm just glad that today there are some very good medications that can manage many of the symptoms, and that my son does not have to suffer as so many others have done in the past. But it still really hurts to see him got through it, though.