This Tigger is *so* sad....

[alpine_64]

RE Tigers and Alpines...


There are many "detail" differences within the cars. There are parts that were "added on" to Tigers and there are parts that were "left off" . For example:

the battery box was never welded to a tiger, there is something on the inner face of the firewall that was never welded onto a tiger.. check ing these things for evidence of removal starts to clarify things..

Then there is the type of welding used for the inner guard braces and the boot wheel mount.. the mounts for the battery etc.. if you know all the details of a "true" tiger you can replicate one. It will take more effort removing evidence of parts that were on the alpine than it would to add the Tiger parts.. its knowing all the differences that will ultimately determine the success.

The TAC crew right or wrong withold some details on Tiger ID to stop people making more accurate fakes.. i guess it helps them with the ID process as there are a few quick reference points for them. There are many tigers with changes to obvious points of ID.. mine for example has a fuel cell in the boot, so the spare wheel hold down is not there (though i have the whole orignial boot floor) point is.. it means you can tell even if a modified car started life as a Tiger.

As for no algers ever being TAC'ed.. thats a big call.. i think there are people out there who know enough to pull it off.

 

[puff4]

Anything that has been made by man's hands can be re-created by man's hands. All it takes is talent and knowledge. If you want to fake a Tiger, it can be - and very likely has been - done. However, if one really does do it properly, is it really any different than the original? This, my friends, is an ethical question, not a question of capability.

 

[agmason]

Rootesracer and Sunbeam65,


I made you arse list and you made my dumb poop list, isn't that nice. What I am saying is prove to me that a reconstituted Alpine has been successfully TACed. You and Sunbeam65 are now the self proclaimed Tiger experts, so the challenge is to you. If you prove it to me, great! Then you are the experts (no arrogance there of course) you claim to be.

Sunbeam65, I have owned my Tiger since 1994 and was involved as part time mechanic with my older brothers Alpine that he raced in SCCA back in the 1970's. So I have some knowledge of Sunbeams. Of course it may not be as great as yours as you like to point out.


I will give you another challange Rootesracer and Sunbeam 65, build a Tiger out of a Alpine and have it TACed. Then you win!

 

[jmthehermit]

Sure Kevin, bring up the word ethical. If everyone was ethical and honest this banter would not be needed. Jeff

 

[Bill Blue]

Dude, in order to to make this interesting and give them an incentive, why don't you make a standing offer to buy the new "Tiger". It would have to be a fine car, so make the offer for something like $75,000. Then you could announce to the world you had the world's highest priced, known Alger.

Who knows, maybe the competition would flush out other Alger owners.

Bill

 

[agmason]

"Dude, in order to to make this interesting and give them an incentive, why don't you make a standing offer to buy the new "Tiger". It would have to be a fine car, so make the offer for something like $75,000. Then you could announce to the world you had the world's highest priced, known Alger."

Bill,

Now why would I want a fake "Tiger"? I seem to be missing your point. Maybe you can join in with Rootesracer and sunbeam65 and help out. Or better yet, put up the money and buy it your self.


"Who knows, maybe the competition would flush out other Alger owners."

Are you one of them by chance and just worried about this discussion?

 

[RootesRacer]

"Who knows, maybe the competition would flush out other Alger owners."

Are you one of them by chance and just worried about this discussion?

New word:

ignoranus
(ig.nor.AY.nus) n. A person who is both stupid and extremely rude or obnoxious.

 

[Bill Blue]

"Dude, in order to to make this interesting and give them an incentive, why don't you make a standing offer to buy the new "Tiger". It would have to be a fine car, so make the offer for something like $75,000. Then you could announce to the world you had the world's highest priced, known Alger."

Bill,

Now why would I want a fake "Tiger"? I seem to be missing your point. Maybe you can join in with Rootesracer and sunbeam65 and help out. Or better yet, put up the money and buy it your self.


"Who knows, maybe the competition would flush out other Alger owners."

Are you one of them by chance and just worried about this discussion?

My point is, why would they want to put the resources into producing the perfect Alger just to prove you are wrong? I really doubt they care. At least not that much. You are adamant it cannot be done, what can you loose? I would think you would relish the idea of encouraging them in their folly.

This issue came up a year or two ago. At that time, it was mentioned that "X" Tiger expert would not TAC a car if "Y" (body man) had restored it. Seems that says volumes.

Me, I do not have a Tiger, do not want a Tiger. For that matter, do not want an Alger. As far as I'm concerned, the Tiger/Alger controversy is somewhat stupid as all Tigers were initially created as Alpine bodies and are factory conversions. Think of a Tiger as a factory Alpine option. Like a luggage rack. If a person has factory rack, dealer rack, or one that was owner installed ten years ago, does it really matter?

Bill

 

[Series3Scott]

This has been both fun and disturbing to watch. No wonder the Sunbeam community can't grow in strength like the MG or Triumph crowd. The stock guys pick on the V6 guys, the V6 guys shake their heads at the stock guys, the stock guys pick at each other as to who is more pure, the Tiger guys sneer at the Alpine guys, knowing all the time their cars wouldn't exist were it not for the humble Alpine. Then we have the Tiger guys with TAC'd cars who can feel superior over all because their car has been "authenticated". God forbid you have a nice clean Tiger 20 years from now, but never get it TAC'd. It won't matter how "pure" you think it is because it will need its papers to prove to the world it's a real Tiger.

IMO what this thread has exposed is the thinly-disguised fear amongst the Tiger crowd that some "fakes" may have slipped through and been TAC'd. We all KNOW or STRONGLY suspect certain Tigers that have been rebodied yet passed the TAC test, but no one dare speak of it or expose it. Spend some time with Tiger guru Doug Jennings and you'll see what I mean. Reminds me of the classic tale of the emperor and his new clothes. Well guess what, the emperor has no clothes. The bottom line to all of this is money. Always follow the money. As Tiger prices continue to climb, certain groups will do what they can to continue to elevate the price, either through the TAC process or some other clever invention of man.

For me, I'm sick to death of all of it. I got into the collector car hobby to enjoy the cars, not to pad my investment portfolio. Be careful what you wish for Tiger guys - suddenly, when an "authentic" Tiger is worth $100k you won't be able to drive it for fear of an accident. Then what have you accomplished? Congratulations, you have a very expensive car now sitting in your garage. Big deal.

I think the V6 / V8 guys may be on to something - they seem to be enjoying their cars a lot more and certainly aren't worried about all of this crap.

 

[agmason]

"New word:

ignoranus
(ig.nor.AY.nus) n. A person who is both stupid and extremely rude or obnoxious."


Rootesracer,


You make the claim that fake Tigers have passed TAC and are certified. I ask you which cars. Your response is to call names and attack me personally. Now I know what level of person I am dealing with.
Thank you for letting me know.

"My point is, why would they want to put the resources into producing the perfect Alger just to prove you are wrong? I really doubt they care. At least not that much. You are adamant it cannot be done, what can you loose?
I would think you would relish the idea of encouraging them in their folly."

Bill,


You certainly missed my point and it was never about proving me wrong, it was proving what Rootesracer said was true. Rootesracer is making a claim and can't back it up. The next logical step is for him to recreate a Tiger from an Alpine and send it through a TAC inspection. I have nothing to loose because I never claimed fake Tigers have a TAC sticker.
Your pal, Rootesracer has everything to gain and can make a good return on his time and money if the car passes TAC. He can sell his car as a genuine Tiger and has TAC as proof. I doubt he has the ability or knowledge to do it.

"Think of a Tiger as a factory Alpine option. Like a luggage rack."

Okay........if it makes you happy.


"IMO what this thread has exposed is the thinly-disguised fear amongst the Tiger crowd that some "fakes" may have slipped through and been TAC'd. We all KNOW or STRONGLY suspect certain Tigers that have been rebodied yet passed the TAC test, but no one dare speak of it or expose it."


Series3Scott,


If you or anyone else who reads this KNOW of fake Tigers that have passed TAC then PLEASE, and I repeat PLEASE PASS IT ON.
You and the rest make accusations but never produce any EVIDENCE. That is the CENTRAL POINT ! Where is your proof? Anyone can make claims all day long but back them up. Otherwise, you are blowing smoke. Oh, the Emperor needs his clothes back.

 

[MikeH]

I think the horse is dead. No point it beating it further.

 

[66Tiger]

Go to Norm Miller's Tiger Website... http://www.rootes1.com

Go to "The A List" near the bottom of the homepage...click on 1965...you will see a couple Tigers with TAC numbers in RED...the code at the bottom says (0000 Indicates a voided "TAC" assignment)

That leads me to believe that a car passed TAC then later was determined not to be authentic...or am I naked here?

Paul

If you or anyone else who reads this KNOW of fake Tigers that have passed TAC then PLEASE, and I repeat PLEASE PASS IT ON.
You and the rest make accusations but never produce any EVIDENCE. That is the CENTRAL POINT ! Where is your proof? Anyone can make claims all day long but back them up. Otherwise, you are blowing smoke. Oh, the Emperor needs his clothes back.

 

[RootesRacer]

Go to Norm Miller's Tiger Website... http://www.rootes1.com

Go to "The A List" near the bottom of the homepage...click on 1965...you will see a couple Tigers with TAC numbers in RED...the code at the bottom says (0000 Indicates a voided "TAC" assignment)

That leads me to believe that a car passed TAC then later was determined not to be authentic...or am I naked here?

Paul

Better yet, look at the TAC'd tiger that is marked "alert", and shares a VIN with another TAC'd tiger.

Ok Ok Ok, I'm done now.

 

[66Tiger]

I don't believe the VIN tag is part of the TACing, but I am not an expert...

Imagine one Tiger with an original VIN tag but no title (in some states aren't older cars sold without titles?)...and a second real Tiger with no VIN tag and the missing title from the first car.

In Michigan when I transferred the title to my Tiger they never looked at the VIN, all I had was a signed piece of paper and the money. I looked at a Tiger that was missing it's VIN but passed on it for that fact alone, they did have a title for it.

I was at a swap meet recently where a guy was selling titles for "collecting purposes only"...there were no Tiger titles in there by the way.

Paul

 

[RootesRacer]

I don't believe the VIN tag is part of the TACing, but I am not an expert...

Probably true, the error cropped up during a cross reference.

What it shows is that one of those vehicles, (Norm obviously knows which) is a true tiger (or as true as the process can ascertain) and the other was done up well enough to pass the "then" TAC scrutiny.
The tiger in question, lacking the true VIN info or other JAL related support documentation must be assumed to be an alger with a particularly well done conversion.

 

[mikephillips]

My understanding is that TAC is only validating the body, not the identity so it would be possible for 2 cars to have the same vin and both be TAC'ed. Or even a MK2 rebuilt on a MK 1 or 1A body. How it would be handled in legal terms or desirability is a whole other thing.

 

[66Tiger]

I didn't read that whole story...too long for my short attention span...I will try and read it again

Probably true, the error cropped up during a cross reference.

What it shows is that one of those vehicles, (Norm obviously knows which) is a true tiger (or as true as the process can ascertain) and the other was done up well enough to pass the "then" TAC scrutiny.
The tiger in question, lacking the true VIN info or other JAL related support documentation must be assumed to be an alger with a particularly well done conversion.

Near the end of Norm's letter says..."which Tiger you have"...sounds like it's a Tiger but it's true VIN/JAL numbers will never be known.

 

[Alpine Addict]

Look at the homemade VIN tag on this car

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cars....c0.m245&_trkparms=72:317|65:12|39:1|240:1318

 

[puff4]

Oh, now that one really *is* sad. I love the front grille emblem... cute.

"Extensive bodywork".... indeed.

 

[alpine_64]

I think it comes down to there are 3 different arguments going on here..

Q1.) What constitutes a "real" Tiger after it has been heavily restored.
A1.) something people can fight over

Q2.) If you can make all the deatils the same as the factory why not swap tags?
A2.) It doesnt matter if you move all the parts across from a real tiger to a solid alpine.. the base of the car is still an alpine, and tag swapping is illegal. The only reason to swap the tags would be to prevent a loss in value, if it was about how the car performed the tags would not be an issue.

Q3.) Can a fake car make it through TAC?
A3.) I'm betting it could.. and lots of people suspect some have, if they are that good, i guess only the builder will know.



BTW scott.. no matter what my tiger is worth I will have a blast in it.. and as i have learnt.. in city driving an alpine is more fun (much better handling and i can play with the gears without losing my right to drive) each car has its merits and im happy to own both.. now i only need 3 more sunbeams.. a factory stock tiger, factory stock alpine.. and a nice V6 conversion.. but as i dont want to mod the sunbeam body ill have to do the V6 on a Tiger body so that i can use the wider tunnel and fit even better headers!